The greatest driver of all time? (spolier!)

Rodeo · 09-10-2006, 05:52 AM

Michael announced his retirement today, in style. From the winner's podium at Monza.

No one has even come close to his string of accomplishments at the highest levels of motorsport. A living legend, and perhaps the greatest driver of all time.

MFAFF · 09-10-2006, 05:55 AM

At last he's out....

He has amassed a string of enviable records but that does not make a person great...and MS does not have it..

Rodeo · 09-10-2006, 05:58 AM

You can quibble over whether he is the greatest of all time, but he is great.

I wonder how time will judge his sportmanship, which I think is the most serious threat to his legacy.

DaveE · 09-10-2006, 06:22 AM

He's the greatest of the modern era and no question of that. Anyone who would dispute it is blinded by their personal dislike, IMHO.

Oh Haha · 09-10-2006, 06:31 AM

I am not a big fan of MS. I think he is arrogant and kinda rude BUT I do feel he is one of the greatest drivers of any motorsport.

Now, we'll see what Kimi can do with a decent ride next year at Ferrari.

livi · 09-10-2006, 06:34 AM

I bet his squeeze put the thumb screws on him.

- Michael dear, its time you stop racing. I expect you to earn a lot of sponsor and advertising money in the future and what would happen if you got killed in a race ?????

At least he has made enough money to afford a woman for the rest of his life.

Jims5543 · 09-10-2006, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveE
He's the greatest of the modern era and no question of that. Anyone who would dispute it is blinded by their personal dislike, IMHO.

+1

Very sad day for me. If you watched the race and saw Jean Todt's body language. Then you saw MS walk away and aviod Luca when he got out of his car. He alsmost seemed like he wanted to just get away from Luca.

I do not think MS wanted to retire. I think this hand was forced on him by the Ferrari big wigs.

Good luck to Ferrari, I love the Iceman and always felt he could dominate in a good reliable car. Renault would have been his better choice. Ferrari has had its problems these last 2 years and to see MS within 2 points of FA right now is an accomplishment in and of itself.

It will be a very intersting season next year, althoug somewhat empty. Especially to me because MS has always been a part of F-1 while I have been a fan.

Oh Haha · 09-10-2006, 06:36 AM

What I thought was strange is that he never thanked Ralf. He thanked everyone else by name almost but not his brother?

Jims5543 · 09-10-2006, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Oh Haha
I am not a big fan of MS. I think he is arrogant and kinda rude BUT I do feel he is one of the greatest drivers of any motorsport.

Now, we'll see what Kimi can do with a decent ride next year at Ferrari.

.....and FA is not rude? Brake checking test drivers during Friday practice because he feels they should move out of his way so he can practice on an empty track?

Kimi's better choice was Renault, Ferrari's have proven to have their problems these last 2 years either they break, or if the tires are not 100% correct for that day, they are monsters to drive.

MS built his team around him, something I do not think Kimi will have the luxury of having.

I am a huge fan of Kimi and wish him the best with Ferrari but the Ferrari is not the best ride out there.

MFAFF · 09-10-2006, 06:40 AM

Dave,

All depends on your definition of the 'modern' era....

Stack him against Prost or Senna?

DaveE · 09-10-2006, 06:50 AM

Yes, I would. It would be interesting to see the three in their prime racing against each other. Fantasy F1 alas.......

MFAFF · 09-10-2006, 07:54 AM

Dave,

Very easy,

Senna, as well as being far more dedicated and talented was leagues ahead of MS in terms of ruthlessness... he would have simply driven MS off the track as and when it suited him... see Japan with Alain; twice...It would have been very hard nosed stuff...

As for Alain.. MS would have struggled to match his ability in setting up the car...

MS would have been a fighting third.. able to win and score as part of a great three way fight...but he would not have been dominant..

Dottore · 09-10-2006, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MFAFF
Dave,

Very easy,

Senna, as well as being far more dedicated and talented was leagues ahead of MS in terms of ruthlessness... he would have simply driven MS off the track as and when it suited him... see Japan with Alain; twice...It would have been very hard nosed stuff...

As for Alain.. MS would have struggled to match his ability in setting up the car...

MS would have been a fighting third.. able to win and score as part of a great three way fight...but he would not have been dominant..

Good lord MFAFF,

Would've, could've, should've...what a bunch of idle, speculative crap! How does anyone know whether Senna would've "driven MS off the track"? Fact is he didn't. You have no idea how MS would have responded racing against Senna over time - because he never had the chance.

And MS would have struggle "to match Prost's ability to set up his car"? Where have you been the last 10 years? Look at what MS has achieved with Ferrari.

Fact is Schumi has seven world championships under his belt - and is going for eight. No one has touched that record or will touch it for a very long time. You may not like his style and his discipline, but it has brought him to the very pinnacle of the sport.

The proof, as you Brit's like to say, is in the pudding.

sammyg2 · 09-10-2006, 08:16 AM

MS is the greatest driver of all time and will never be matched.

Just because you don't like him doesn't mean that isn't true.
He isn't arrogant, he is german. Logical, to the point, little emotion.
The sport will be less without him.

MFAFF · 09-10-2006, 08:51 AM

Maybe Dottore you should lookat the pre MS era and the work Prost did with McLaren....

Or maybe what he did with Ferrari..bringing a team that was a total no hoper into the field of battle, to an extent MS did not have to deal with.

Prost, both by his own ability and Ron Dennis' perfectionism bought F1 racing (not car design) to levels of professionalism unheard of in F1 circles. MS has built on that, not innovated to the the same extent.

I don't recall Ferrari, even with Todt, Brawn Bryne and MS winning 15 out of 16 races.. see McLaren in 88...or exerting as much technical, professional and logisitical supremacy as McLaren in that era.

As for MS against Senna...Seeing a both have a ruthless treak and have a penchant for driving others who they fear off the track I think a comparison of their relative abilites is fair...and their response to the flak that followed.. Senna moved to Williams to ensure he had a car that was capable of beating MS in the Benetton...By his own admission he was trying to make sure Ms did not beat him again...And, as in Senna's first encounter with Prost in the Mercedes Cosworht car race he knew MS was a hungry, aggressive young turk and knew what a young turk was capable of in order to win...

Also I bet you that had you said that Senna would have drive Prost off the track in Japan.. on one of the highest speed first corners of the circuit, to a team mate.. on a team who principle was already regarded as one of the most disciplined bosses in the pit who did not suffer foolishness.. etc...nobody would have believed you...They would have accpeted it was possible.. but impropable.

One of the difficult things is to evaluate the difference between success and greatness...Stirling Moss was one of the greatest ever racing drivers, yet never won the World Championship...he was not as successful, but was a greater racer than MS, simply becuase he achieved his success in a manner that demonstrated his ability and skill as superior to the others.. not by ensuring others where unable to win...shall we look to nose dampers and 'blocking' manoeuvres...

Ferrari have long been too keen to use off track pressure to gain an advantage...and this diminishes their on track success...which in 90% of the cases is sufficent to win without the shdows...

As for the proof is in the pudding....I think you'll find that MS is regarded rightly and indeputably as the most successful racer ever.. but not the greatest.. certainly not here.

Whilst his earlier transgressions could and would have been excused over time, the incident in Monaco this year will ensure that the ultimate accolade is not his...

No truely great champion needs to do resort ot this type of action. His contribution will be noticed.. but I prefer Briatore's comment.. 'I'll not miss him'...

cegerer · cegerer's Garage

As I watched that today, it didn't seem possible that I watched his 1st race (racing in a Jordan at Spa 1991) some 15 years ago! What a run he's had. There were a few years there where direct comparison's with Prost and Senna could be made. Schumacher always held his own, usually in inferior equipment.

Schu vs Prost vs Senna:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=IXXWp5IdhvI&mode=related&search=

Schumacher vs Mika (in Marlboro car) - F3 Macau race:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VvWq29WjFOs

Another interesting video while we're at it, showing Senna storming out of a driver's meeting just before he takes out Prost on purpose at Suzuka 1990.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=wUWKBG_IxNE

Joeaksa · 09-10-2006, 10:13 AM

MS was an excellent driver in excellent cars, but not the greatest of all time by a long shot. He followed the rules when it benefited him, otherwise not.

Ayrton Senna wiped the floor with MS many times and had Senna lived MS would not have won near the races he did.

Greatest in the world?? Look up Tazio Nuvulari and what he accomplished in his career. Would put Senna second and Jimmy Clark or Fangio in third position. They all won in any car they drove, something that MS cannot say. As well you could look up and respect them and thats something that very few people can say about MS.

pwd72s · 09-10-2006, 10:21 AM

Mario Andretti...from the bullrings of dirt tracks to competing against the effete little boys of F-1...he has raced against, and beaten, them all. Today's F-1 primadonnas aren't even close to being in the same league. In ALL forms of Racing, Mario did it, and he did it damned well!

URY914 · 09-10-2006, 10:37 AM

Look what MS did at Monoco this year. Blocking the track during qualifing. Poor sportsmanship in my book.

He's great, but not the greatest. Besides has he ever autocrossed?

Jims5543 · 09-10-2006, 11:16 AM

Over 90 wins and 7 championships... yup, he sucks.

This guys letter on Planet F-1 sums it up for me.

Quote:

Enough has been said about Schumi's strengths and weaknesses. The criticisms regarding his weaknesses are fairly accurate, albeit said with a heavy dose of sour grape.

A lot of people, including Stirling Moss, Jackie Stewart, Niki Lauda are probably unhappy that a lesser sportsman like Schumi has won more championships than any driver in history. They have picked the perfect opportunities, created by none other than Schumi himself, to lay their attacks on him. Moss' ranking of Schumi's driving abilities way below that of Alonso and Raikkonen is a clear indication of his "narrow chest," which is what we call jealousy in the East.

What's most unfortunate is that the more these former champions (of which Moss is not) criticised Schumi, the more they discredit themselves.

Isn't it about time to stop criticising Schumi the person and allow Schumi the driver to finish the season, for better or for worse?
Tony Lam