As The Pendulum Swings

[Superman]

Bush "administration" appointees to the National Labor Relations Board have reached another not-so-curious decision to erode the rights of working men and women. In the "Kentucky River" case, the Board has determined that charge nurses are management staff and not entitled to union protections. This is the latest in a string of similar determinations, most of which have been overturned by the Supreme Court. Of course, the Court has been loaded now, along with the Board.

In related but less contemporary news, erosion of protections in statute gave rise to the union movement in the first place. Many of my more wise Labor associates insist that the best thing that could happen to organized labor would be the repeal of statutory protections.

Be careful what you wish for Mr. Bush and your political party, and hope that working men and women remain ignorant of your very obvious agenda. Waitresses in tennis shoes may stop voting for tax breaks for millionaires.

[lendaddy]

Indeed the union folk have been getting the shaft for some time now. Good luck selling that one Sup.

[Icemaster]

Sorry Supe, unions had their day, it's long gone.


How many posts before someone argues that they're needed more now than ever...?





Not.

[Scooter]

So, when is Wayne going to split political/religion from OT? He DID say he was going to.

[john walker's workshop]

same thing, isn't it?

[Superman]

I respect you guys views. Or at least, the views of some of you guys. And I would not disagree, if your observation is that wages and working conditions are not so deplorable that increasing unionism is imminent.

On the other hand......there is a school of thought that would warn of social trouble where the gap between the "haves" and the "have nots" grows indefensibly large. Like where the middle class disappears.

And I will also assure you that, as much as you think teachers make six figures for sitting on their asses and whining all day......the education and health care industries are in flux. Those are dynamic industries because the wages and working conditions are out of equilibrium. No doubt about that. Ask any compensation analyst who has compared the work and requirements of those professions with similar requirements and work duties of other workers outside those industries.

And more importantly, the Court and the Board's protections of wealth and profits of the "haves" over the earnings and rights of the "have nots" very possibly could spur some interesting legislation. When Congress returns to its customary citizen-respect mode. Unfortunately for the ideology of some of you guys, this nation is, in fact, about people. Not profits. And it will eventually remember that. Dubya is helping.

[Superman]

Originally posted by Scooter
So, when is Wayne going to split political/religion from OT? He DID say he was going to.

It is the same thing. Members of the OT Board seemed to prefer to leave it alone, as is, in the last poll. Of course, Wayne can do anything he wants here. It's not a democracy. And that's my point, folks. Duyba thinks that what's best for America is not what's best for Americans. And Americans will decide these issues in the long run, not Duyba.

Perhaps I've had too much coffee. Dubya has still got some more toes he can step on before he leaves office. I hope he succeeds. Right now, I like Dubya. He's an excellent illustrator of the differences between the parties.

[Rodeo]

It never ceases to amaze me how the working men and women on this board have no use for working men and women that have unionized, but run to defend Halliburton and Exxon

Anyway, just stopped in to bump the thread rating a notch

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by Rodeo
It never ceases to amaze me how the working men and women on this board have no use for working men and women that have unionized, but run to defend Halliburton and Exxon

Simple, many feel the unions bear a good portion of ther blame for killing Americas Mfg. industry.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by lendaddy
Simple, many feel the unions bear a good portion of ther blame for killing Americas Mfg. industry.

Unions are a valid answer to the corporation, required by the existence of the corporation. Don 't like unions, then eliminate the government construct of the corporation.

Unions have had absolutely nothing to do with changes in manufacturing in America. Anyone with a passing familiarity with economics would know that.

[lendaddy]

I don't have a problem with the existence of either one.

Collectively demand unreasonable things......collectively get the boot.

Treat your employees like trash........die of labor shortage.

[R Wilco]

And fastpat knows absolutely everything about everything. You should win the Pulitzer for the most outlandish posts. You want to have the president of the US executed. Good job.

[legion]

The very title of this thread suggests that inertia will eventually push things Supe's way.

The fact is, labor laws are extremely pro-union. In Illinois, one cannot be employed in many jobs without joining a union (from an auto worker to a grocery store bagger). Workers are forced to pay dues, and the unions spend fortunes on political campaigns, whether or not the members agree with the politicians they fund. In fact, unions spend on only one political party...

Also, a union can approach an employer and asked to organize the workers. At that point, the employer can capitulate and recognize the union--without a vote ever taking place. A union can in essence take over a shop without the blessing of the workers. Pretty democratic, huh? Of course, if a vote does take place, the employer is prohibited by law from saying or doing anything that could be interpreted as infringing on the "workers right to organize". Further, once a shop is unionized, it is impossible to de-unionize--no matter how the workers feel about the union. It is also impossible to switch unions if the workers do not feel they are properly represented.

I go to a NASCAR race every summer with a bunch union guys who work for a utility. One of the most common things I hear is: "the union is as corrupt as management". Think that one over for a minute.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally posted by Superman
Waitresses in tennis shoes may stop voting for tax breaks for millionaires.

It's a very tough choice today for working people when it comes to political party affiliation. The waitress in tennis shoes generally does not want to vote for the gay marriage, give her hard-earned wages to the lazy, erode family values and murder babies candidate either. Throw in all forms of social engineering, maybe some gun control for good measure, and she is left with a rather unpallatable package.

Average people DO vote their morals and convictions. Democrats have forgotten that and it has cost them dearly at the polls. If they can ever manage to free themselves of the lunatic fringe, they will regain middle America. The Republicans have been a poor second choice, but one that is made on moral convictions more than anything else. And if the Democrats can manage to return to their pro-labor roots, they would be a force to be reckoned with; alas, they have as dismal of a track record in my lifetime as Republicans do in undermining labor.

Unions have long since overstepped their bounds. I deal with union folks every day; IAM ("I Ain't Movin'") members. There is no recourse for a company that is saddled with these as far as dealing with poor work performance and bad attitudes. What ever happened to the days when unions proudly supplied the best tradesmen for a job? It now appears their only real function is to protect the lazy and innept. Why are they not partners with company management in providing a qualified, motivated workforce? The IAM cetainly provides lip service through its training programs, but there is no touching them on the shop floor, no matter how poor of an employee they may be. Why don't they police their own ranks? Like any other favored group that is protected by law, they see no reason to step up to the plate. Get rid of the "job for life, whether I work or not" attitude and make them compete like everyone else for their positions, on an individual basis. Maybe some of those senior members could be enticed into working once again, rather than simply drawing a paycheck.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Originally posted by fastpat
Unions are a valid answer to the corporation, required by the existence of the corporation. Don 't like unions, then eliminate the government construct of the corporation.

+1

Corporations are merely a convenient fiction engendered to mitigate the liability of its officers.

Oh, yeah, and they pay off the politicians you vote for, too.

[tabs]

I didn't know that Unions DO NOT employ Lobbists

I didn't know that the Sierra Club DOES NOT employ Lobbists.

So why is it sonsidered to be a bad thing if a corporation employs a Lobbist?

FastPat can stand on his soapbox in Leischester Square all day long spouting his delusional tirade about the evil of OUR government. However I have not seen ONE rational solution or realistic appraisal of a problem offered by him. It all just comes down to never never land type of thinking..He and Michael Jackson are two of a kind.

Unions deaden the step of the people who want to excell. Why should one work to maximum efficency if the lazy co-worker with a days more seniority gets the preference. The pendlum swings both ways for years it was for workers rights, now it is giving some of those back.

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by tabs
The pendlum swings both ways for years it was for workers rights, now it is giving some of those back.

Workers Rights isn't even the right term anymore, it's "Workers Leverage" now.

[MichiganMat]

As the son of a Union member (IBEW) I can tell you that without the Union saving our family I probably wouldn't have made it to college and certainly wouldn't be sitting here typing responses on a Porsche forum.

And all union work is not created equally. If driving one and half hours each way to a frozen jobsite in northern Indiana to work overtime on a weekend sounds like "I ain't movin'" then you really need to have your head checked. And for every good run of work theres a 6month dry spell with 150 guys on the books.

But Im just telling you what you already know. The sad fact is that in a lot of the country Unions are the only things putting food on the table and keeping the lights on.

[tabs]

My Grandfather was Blackballed by Ford and had to move his family with 3 young boys to a different state to get work because of his Union activities in the early 1920s.

He was known to pick people up by the seat of their pants and throw them outa the house if they were anti-union...

All U would have to know is how Ford treated their employees before the Unions to understand how he felt.

The Unions enabled the average Joe in America to become Middleclass....

BUT as the ORGINAL LEADERSHIP lretired and the 3 or 4 generation leadership took over...Unions devolved in being nothing more than a large corporation thats product is the supply of Labor. When was the last time the Union fought for a guys job on the floor, but ever threaten to touch the Pension or Helathcare Funds and on strike they go...

[Moneyguy1]

Rochester New York was once an industrial powerhouse. THe large companies of thetime had an organization made up of executives from all the major industrial employers. If an individual were foolish enough to seek employment with another company while working for one of the other mambers, he or she was ostracised and no member of the organization would hire him or her. It was called "The Industrial Management Council".

The history of the union movement shows that unions were necessary because of the power of corporations. Those here who rally against the union movement are totally ignorant of the conditions under which the union movement arose. Go back to the late 19th century and start with Samuel Gompers and go from there. Yes, there may be abuses, but even those are not simply the result of union demands, but include the willingness of management to cede certain items over the years. Management, in many cases has not done its job and unions have taken advantage of the situation as any group will do.

I am continually amazed at the conclusions some people arrive at without a scintilla of factual information.

"Lord, let me not criticize my brother until I have walked a mile in his moccosins". (old Indian proverb)