But gawd, can you drive....

[artplumber]

Originally posted by Howard Agency
Peter, 'stopped' refers to really stopped, as in gas, lunch and pee breaks. And I don't know about Purry, but I was in four states AND stopped at Willow for a couple of hot laps. I never exceed posted limits.
I was also surprised at the high average speeds, but little traffic and courteous drivers made it easy. Surprise 2: 914/4 averaged 31.6mpg, with one leg over 36.

Howard,
I'm not being argumentative just trying to resolve the issues of what is the mean speed divisor - total time on trip, time when moving, or time when in car.

I certainly have averaged 60mph on 1500 mi trips in the days of 55 mph speed limits - counted as time from getting in car to actual arrival, without hitting 70mph (includes meals, gas, restroom breaks and a catnap). To average 70mph is not impossible if you're only counting when on the freeway etc. But if one adds in a lot of city street time and meals, it would be difficult to maintain, to say nothing of adding in sleep time.

[Purrybonker]

Peter, to your question and to perhaps put context on this for Milu in reply to his gracious remarks...

To my understanding, the Nuvi calculates it's position several times per second and if it doesn't detect movement over x number of measurements it dumps that time into the "stopped time" bucket, so as to not be included in the "moving average" calculation. The math, then is distance over moving time. This could make for a very significant variation in city driving, but I would argue that it's an insignificant variable over long distances.

So in fairness, even time spent at a red light would not be included in the moving average. However, any movement down to very low speeds will be considered "moving". As an example, if I take it for a one hour walk, it might show something like 25 or 30 seconds of "stopped time", even though I was never aware of having completely stopped during that hour.

I guess there must be a low speed/no speed variance tolerance based upon the variables of GPS positioning accuracy.

[artplumber]

PB, no worries, wasn't my question anyway (Milu's I believe).

OTOH, so you dumped part of your trip (mean speed x trip hours = 3800 miles), but you managed to keep a track speed on it huh? (hehe)

[Isabo]

Originally posted by Purrybonker
Peter, to your question and to perhaps put context on this for Milu in reply to his gracious remarks...

To my understanding, the Nuvi calculates it's position several times per second and if it doesn't detect movement over x number of measurements it dumps that time into the "stopped time" bucket, so as to not be included in the "moving average" calculation. The math, then is distance over moving time. This could make for a very significant variation in city driving, but I would argue that it's an insignificant variable over long distances.

So in fairness, even time spent at a red light would not be included in the moving average. However, any movement down to very low speeds will be considered "moving". As an example, if I take it for a one hour walk, it might show something like 25 or 30 seconds of "stopped time", even though I was never aware of having completely stopped during that hour.

I guess there must be a low speed/no speed variance tolerance based upon the variables of GPS positioning accuracy.

I see,
you are calculating average speed by excluding the factors that slow you down
Very meaningful

[Howard Agency]

Originally posted by Isabo
I see,
you are calculating average speed by excluding the factors that slow you down
Very meaningful

Well, Isa, you got me to thinking, so here goes. I fired up the Nuvi and walked around the back yard. After about 5 seconds of being stopped, it does show as 'stopped' time. But move a step and it kicks back over to 'moving' time. So I guess everyone is right. In city driving, the total time is more relevant, on country or limited access roads they get pretty close. My screen shot was a single driving event that had less than 5 traffic lights IIRC. My 'stopped' time was mostly out of the car.



More importantly, our cruise stops in Livorno on the 31st. Have rented a car. Suggestions for a one day tour of Tuscany??

[Dottore]

Originally posted by Howard Agency
More importantly, our cruise stops in Livorno on the 31st. Have rented a car. Suggestions for a one day tour of Tuscany??

Can help with this. Do NOT go north to Pisa. Traffic nightmare. Head east to Suvereto, then up to Voltera then to San Gimigano. Great country roads. San Gimigano - well you could spend a long time there. Check out the "Dorando " for lunch.

If you have time I would also take in Castellina in Chianti and Sienna. Though of course Sienna will take up a lot of time in itself.

Have fun. Wonderful part of the world.

[Howard Agency]

Originally posted by Dottore
Can help with this. Do NOT go north to Pisa. Traffic nightmare. Head east to Suvereto, then up to Voltera then to San Gimigano. Great country roads. San Gimigano - well you could spend a long time there. Check out the "Dorando" for lunch.

If you have time I would also take in Castellina in Chianti and Sienna. Though of course Sienna will take up a lot of time in itself.

Have fun. Wonderful part of the world.

Perfect!!! Thank you very much. Mulholland and PCH with better food and wine! . Meet for lunch?

[Isabo]

Originally posted by Howard Agency
So I guess everyone is right.

I must humbly beg to differ with the above statement.
For your day in Tuscany it depends when you are starting and when you need to get back. As long as you plan your tour around your interests it will be hard to get it wrong. Florence, San Gimignano, Pisa and Sienna are all wonderful but you won't do any of them justice in a day and you would have trouble visiting more than one of them even if you use Purrybunker's 70 mph average. Do try the food - I think it's the best of Italian cuisine and unless you're a vegitarian you must try the "fiorentina" an Italian version of the "T" bone, the best is from the "Chianina" but it's expensive and often more economical meat is passed off as Chianina.

[Howard Agency]

Originally posted by Isabo
I must humbly beg to differ with the above statement.
For your day in Tuscany it depends when you are starting and when you need to get back. As long as you plan your tour around your interests it will be hard to get it wrong. Florence, San Gimignano, Pisa and Sienna are all wonderful but you won't do any of them justice in a day and you would have trouble visiting more than one of them even if you use Purrybunker's 70 mph average. Do try the food - I think it's the best of Italian cuisine and unless you're a vegitarian you must try the "fiorentina" an Italian version of the "T" bone, the best is from the "Chianina" but it's expensive and often more economical meat is passed off as Chianina.

So gracious to admit you're wrong.

Ship arrives 0700 departs 1900. All Saints Eve make any difference in traffic? What's your opinion for the best of the best for the one day? Or just come on down and lunch is on me. Only 400km. I figure Italian drivers can do that in 2 hours

Edit. OOPS. Only 300km. Easy drive!

[Carrera3.5L]

Originally posted by Purrybonker
In California, the freeway traffic densities are so high - I don't know how it's even possible to get a speeding ticket.

Believe me, it's possible...

Ralph

[Dottore]

Originally posted by Howard Agency
So gracious to admit you're wrong.

Ship arrives 0700 departs 1900. All Saints Eve make any difference in traffic? What's your opinion for the best of the best for the one day? Or just come on down and lunch is on me. Only 400km. I figure Italian drivers can do that in 2 hours

Given your time constraints, I'll repeat my suggestion for San Gimignano. Forget Florence and Sienna. Just getting in and out of those places, finding parking etc., is a hassle. San Gim. is gorgeous and you can easily spend a day there. And you'll love the Dorando if you are into good food. The dishes are all dishes served during the Renaissance - which have been painstakingly researched by the proprietor. I'll never forget the wild boar leg braised in white wine and garlic.

[Dottore]

Originally posted by Dottore
Given your time constraints, I'll repeat my suggestion for San Gimignano. Forget Florence and Sienna. Just getting in and out of those places, finding parking etc., is a hassle. San Gim. is gorgeous and you can easily spend a day there. And you'll love the Dorando if you are into good food. The dishes are all dishes served during the Renaissance - which have been painstakingly researched by the proprietor. I'll never forget the wild boar leg braised in white wine and garlic.

PS: Would be smart to book a table.

www.ristorantedorando.it

[Howard Agency]

Mapped and booked! Will post pix as soon as possible.

Grazie, Dottore.

[Isabo]

Originally posted by Howard Agency
So gracious to admit you're wrong.

Ship arrives 0700 departs 1900. All Saints Eve make any difference in traffic? What's your opinion for the best of the best for the one day? Or just come on down and lunch is on me. Only 400km. I figure Italian drivers can do that in 2 hours

Edit. OOPS. Only 300km. Easy drive!

I am not admitting I am wrong. I was disagreeing with your statement.
Purrybunker's average is meaningless, however if you care to use his calculation you can easily drive to my house for lunch and be back in time before your ship leaves. In reality we both know you wouldn't make it.

PS if you're trying to calculate distance You need to know the destination - I'll be at my weekend cottage not Milan.

[Howard Agency]

Originally posted by Isabo
I am not admitting I am wrong. I was disagreeing with your statement.
Purrybunker's average is meaningless, however if you care to use his calculation you can easily drive to my house for lunch and be back in time before your ship leaves. In reality we both know you wouldn't make it.

PS if you're trying to calculate distance You need to know the destination - I'll be at my weekend cottage not Milan.

I don't think you appreciate my humor. All in fun. Obviously driving in traffic/towns/twisty roads or stopping to smell the flowers is a far different event.

According to my mapping software, Milano to Luzern is about 145 miles and estimated to take about 3 1/4 hours (45mph average). I would bet you could do it a bit faster. A similar distance in the unpopulated Western US, Mesquite, NV to Beaver, UT is estimated to be 2 hours, 72mph average. I did it a bit faster.

I have driven Milano to Luzern, have you done Mesquite to Beaver?

PM your address. I could always change my lunch plans.

[Isabo]

Originally posted by Howard Agency
I don't think you appreciate my humor. All in fun. Obviously driving in traffic/towns/twisty roads or stopping to smell the flowers is a far different event.

According to my mapping software, Milano to Luzern is about 145 miles and estimated to take about 3 1/4 hours (45mph average). I would bet you could do it a bit faster. A similar distance in the unpopulated Western US, Mesquite, NV to Beaver, UT is estimated to be 2 hours, 72mph average. I did it a bit faster.

I have driven Milano to Luzern, have you done Mesquite to Beaver?

PM your address. I could always change my lunch plans.

Milan to Lucerne is 275 klm. 3.25 hours is certainly possible. The critical points would be getting out of central Milan and how much time was wasted going through customs. This would obviously not be critical if you measured journey times ala Purrybunker.
Livorno to Milan is a more intense drive than it may seem on a map, some parts are a lot of fun. If one did it via Florence one would waste a lot of time in the traffic at peak times. The coast route is usually freer flowing.

[Howard Agency]

I was referring to DRIVING time, not 'journey' time. And western US/Canada, not Europe. I believe PB meant the same.

Isa, if you were arrested in customs and spent a night in jail on your trip from Milano to Luzern it would skew your 'journey' time. And with the exception of the autostrada portion, a far different driving scenario. Agreed?

Using Yahoo mapping software, here is my trip. Yahoo estimates the distance in miles as 752.7 and the driving time (including normal stops and slows in traffic) as 10:33. That does not include lunch, fuel, or overnight stops. BTW, I used similar software to map and time and distance for the Milano/Luzern trip.



Here again is the GPS read. Pretty close, considering our Hotel was about 5 miles closer to home than the middle of Moab. I only beat the estimate by 10 minutes. Still impossible??

[Purrybonker]

Originally posted by Isabo
Milan to Lucerne is 275 klm. 3.25 hours is certainly possible. The critical points would be getting out of central Milan and how much time was wasted going through customs. This would obviously not be critical if you measured journey times ala Purrybunker.

Wow, it's interesting how so much umbrage ('till now I even thought that umbrage was just a sleepy little town in Italy) seems to be being taken over my average speed statements - and europeans being the loudest to claim foul! I'm really suprised!

I assume that the tipping point for you in finding the claims made by Howard and myself distasteful is that the GPS excludes times when the vehicle is completely stopped. But that really goes to my original point which is the observation that American drivers drive fast and quick - as evidenced by an average speed of 70+mph over a 5000 mile trip. My remarks were about how fast they drove, not how long they stopped.

The speed of US drivers in this context is completely disconnected from how much time I may or may not have sat at red lights or stop signs or hoisting beers in pubs. Maybe I'll start a separate thread about how long or short red lights are in the US vs. Canada after my next trip south of the border. As a matter of interest though, I'd bet that I stopped at no more than a couple of dozen traffic lights on my entire 5000+ mile trip. Such is life in the wild, wild west Isabo.

My comments have/had nothing to do with the time spent getting from point "A" to point "B", but speak to the quality of the drive (ie. speed/courtesy/quickness). When I'm on holiday, I try not to care about how long it takes me to get from one place to the other - but I'll always care about how quickly I'm doing it. (well, except for that time in a 993 going from Bratislava to Praha that I never wanted to end)

Sheesh, I thought that the "driving quality" theme would be near and dear to the hearts of most europeans.

Yes, that must be it.

Why Isabo, you are just teasing us, aren't you?

[Milu]

For my part I lost interest after Purrybunker's average calculation was explained. Milan to Lucerne in threee and a quarter hours is possible but depends on a clear run, as Isa said - central Milan and customs. Like Isa I haven't driven in America recently but I don't remember the driving as particularly quick compared to anywhere else.
I have never questioned the possibilities of an average of 70 on a journey. I simply had reservations about maintaining it on a 5000 mile trip.

[Howard Agency]