load bearing wall removal question

[masraum]

I've got an old two story house. It was built in the late 60's and is pretty much a cube cut into 8 rooms, 4 top, 4 bottom. We would like to tear down a wall between two downstairs rooms (kitchen and dining) and put in a bar. I'm fairly sure the wall is a load bearing wall (perpendicular to the beams in the ceiling above it). I've no experience in this sort of thing. I'm sure there's probably at least 2 or 3 experts on this board that can give me some direction. I assume that I need an engineer or something. How do I find one, what sort of cost should I expect? Or what's the best way for me to proceed?

Thanks for the help.

[Steve W]

You'll need a beam of some sort to substitute for the load bearing wall and a support post at each end. If it's fairly short (8-10'), you can probably header it with a 4x, otherwise a glulam beam or steel wideflange would probably be required for long lengths. With large spans the support posts would require a concrete pad footing with size dependent upon bearing load and soil conditions. Sounds like a fairly simple alteration, and simplest is to contract with a local architect that is also able to compute basic structural calculations, or hire a civil engineer (structural) to do the design work. Total costs can be anywhere between $6k to $10k.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

It may also be picking up shear, which a beam alone might not be able to handle. Steve is correct - I'd absolutely have a structural engineer or architect look at it and determine whether the wall is simple load-bearing or a shear wall. If it's simply a bearing wall, there are other ways to handle the vertical loads from above and transfer them down to the ground (columns, post-and-beam solutions, longer spans using trusses, or other bearing walls).

In any case you'll likely need spread footings at the base. Do you have a soils report for the property? This might be required depending on the specifics of your property, but the first thing to do is to get someone out there to look at it, then determine what your design objectives are regarding span lengths, etc. You may want to look at the feasibility of creating an opening or archway in the existing wall, keeping the majority of it but allowing for a visual connection between the two spaces. Though this would also require a structural analysis, it would be simpler and you could probably get away with a couple of tube-steel columns and a header (either wood or steel) above the opening to carry the loads above the opening to the remaining parts of the bearing wall on either side. It would certinaly be simpler (and cheaper) than ripping out the entire wall. . . Just something to consider - you just need to decide what balance of cost & design aesthetic is acceptable to you first.

If that is a structural wall (either bearing or shear), that's gonna' be one expensive bar. It can certainly be done, but it sounds like it would be a net loss from a cost-benefit standpoint. If you're going to live in the place for a long time and it means more to you having it than simple cost-benefit justifies, go for it. If you're going to sell the place in the next few years, you may want to reconsider.

It is very unlikely that you'd be granted a building permit for work of this type without structural calculations and drawings done by a licensed professional in any case.

You can do anything you want with regards to design - it's simply a question of dollars and time.

[dennis in se pa]

A good contractor/homebuilder/remodeler can answer your question. You don't need an architect or an engineer to get the answer to your question. You might need one if the complexity of the job dictates such. What you are looking to do is not rocket science. Good luck with your project.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

I agree - they can answer the question and possibly propose a solution, but I'd want to see their structural calculations, stamped by a licensed engineer before I'd let them touch anything.

Letting Billy-Joe-Jim-Bob into your house and just letting him "rip dat sumbatch out" probably isn't too terribly wise. There are plenty of cases out there where fly-by-night contractors overstep their bounds or try to pull "fast ones" circumventing the normal permitting process and later the thing ends up failing. When the owner seeks retribution, guess what? They're impossible to find, have gone out-of-state, or have dissolved their business and are now operating under a different name.

In all cases, the owner is the loser (sometimes more than just financially!)

A good, quality, licensed and bonded general contractor should be able to propose a solution and I'd invite them to look, but without a licensed professional's structural calculations, I wouldn't let 'em lift a paintbrush on something like this, much less a sawzall. If you get the calcs done first, it'll simply solve the headache later (and possible inflated prices) - you can simply bid the job to a few G.C.s and say "build it" and get what you want and what you know is gonna' be safe and up-to-code.

[masraum]

I was afraid it was going to be pricey. I'm guessing the wall is 10-12' long. Our second story has cement floors. Yes, the whole upstairs is covered in a layer of cement. I kind of figured to do something like this right would require an engineer, but damn, $6-10k. Ouch. I'm guessing that'll turn the wife off of the idea.

Thanks all.

[boboli]

Originally posted by masraum
I was afraid it was going to be pricey. I'm guessing the wall is 10-12' long. Our second story has cement floors. Yes, the whole upstairs is covered in a layer of cement. I kind of figured to do something like this right would require an engineer, but damn, $6-10k. Ouch. I'm guessing that'll turn the wife off of the idea.

Thanks all.

If you have concrete floors you better raise that price even higher. I bet your in the 15-20 grand at the least.

[Rondinone]

I just had a residential structural engineer come out to the house for a similar situation, plus a few others issues. For a 1.5 hour examination, plus a stamped report, it only cost me $450. Money well spent IMO.

[masraum]

Originally posted by Rondinone
I just had a residential structural engineer come out to the house for a similar situation, plus a few others issues. For a 1.5 hour examination, plus a stamped report, it only cost me $450. Money well spent IMO.

Well that's not bad to have someone come out and look things over. We may check into that. Thanks.

I've tried to promote opening up a pass-thru in the wall and building a bar in conjunction with that, but she'll have none of it. I think that would be cheaper and easier. I'm sure that I could manage that once I had someone tell me what was required.