Wayyy off track ... Legal advice needed

[Kevin G.]

I just got a phone call from the wife, seems that our neighbor decided to bulldoze an equestrian trail across the bottom of our property - without even the courtesy of asking for permission to do so.

Heresay from our other neighbor was that when we gave this butthead verbal permission a few years ago (when we bought the property and started to build) to continue to ride his horses across our land, that gave him implied right to cut the trail to do so.

My question is what do I have to do to revoke that verbal permission of use in a manner that will stand up if we have to go to court? Is there anything that we can do about the damage done to our property? Is it as simple as posting a no trespassing sign?

FYI - there is a gate in the fence at our property corner that was existing when we bought the place. Can we bar use of it?

FYI2 - he is building 2 medium sized barn / stables on his property, and we suspect that he is going to board horses there. We do not want - particularly from liability concerns - any prospective boarders to use our property.

FYI3 - he has apparently leased a portion of the property across from us (diagonally at the property corner he shares with the three properties) for grazing horses. There is no fence between that property and ours. Can we force him or the other property owner to put up a fence?

Gawd I am pissed off!!!!

Thanks for any advise...

Kevin

[Rot 911]

How many years ago is a "few" years? If 10 or more you may have problems. If only a few years the next question is "does the neighbor have other access to his property without going through yours or is he "landlocked?" If less than 10 years and he is not landlocked then send him a letter, certified, revoking your permission for him to enter your property.

[cashflyer]

Wayne and Kurt...
Maybe I am missing something, but how is "permission to ride across" equated with "permission to bulldoze a path across" ??


For what it's worth, this sort of situation is why I raised a fuss with parents in my neighborhood who had kids cutting across my yard to get to the school nearby. Now I am labelled as a "child hating bastard" by at least one family.

[Jims5543]

This is easy.

Contact your local Department of Eviromental protection or the building department. Tell them this person trespassed on your land the cleared vegetation without permission.

I am pretty sure they did not pull a clearing permit and they are in a heap of trouble. Trust me on this one, I know.

A client just cut down 4 dead oak trees and 3 live ones on HIS PROPERTY he was just fined by the county for not obtaining a cutting permit.

I, as a land surveyor, have to pull a permit just to use a machette and trim back vegetation on someones property I am surveying.

I am in Florida, you are in California, I am willing to bet your penalties for hurting mother earth are higher.

[MRM]

You did not give him permission to cut a trail by giving him permission to ride across your land. There is a distinct legal difference. What he has done now is prett much the same, from a legal analysis, as building a driveway or putting a garage over your lot line and on your property.

As a question of law, you can sue him, probably the cause of action would be for trespass as he exceeded his authorization by going from riding on the land to improving it, and get an order making him stop riding there and to put the land back the way it was. You have minimal money damages, so you would get nominal damages, plus out of pocket expenses and actual damages if he couldn't put the area back to the way it was.

But as a practical matter, you should just bite the bullet and go down and talk to him ASAP and tell him that while you want to be a good neighbor, riding on your land is one thing, bulldozing a trial is quite another, and you expect him to be a good neighbor and stop the bulldozing immediately and put the place back to normal.

You might get lucky and be able to call a city/county/village/township or Department of Natural Resources official, explain the situation, and see if he is violating any law or ordinances. If he is, the official might be willing to tell the neighbor to stop and to put the land back without telling him that you were the one who reported it.

A few years back my mother was getting a lot of trash washing onto her land from the farmer just up the hill who was dumping his trash in the creek that ran from his property to hers. She called the local game warden who also enforced the anti-dumping laws. He stopped by the farmer's place, told him he was on a routine patrol and noticed a lot of trash in the ditch. After explaining how bad of an idea that was, and what a heavy fine it could call for, the farmer promised never to do it again if he didn't get a ticket. The game warden issued the warning and left. He told my mother to call if she noticed more trash, but that if she was satisfied he wouldn't prosecute the case. Problem solved.

Hope you can work out something similar. Neighbor disputes are nasty and expensive. You are right as a matter of law, but some times that doesn't matter. Especially when you're paying someone like me $200+ an hour to deal with the jerk. Wining without fighting is infinitely better than wining the fight.


Keep us updated. I'll give you any free advice along the way that you want. Of course, free advice is worth what you pay for it, or at least mine is.

[Kevin G.]

Wayne - Cooler heads prevail, I suppose. I haven't been this mad in many years, so I'm going to enjoy the thoughts of razor wire, pig farms and egg ranches for a while longer. I will probably end up with a telephone call denying further access to the property and follow up with a cert letter. I really don't want the potential for commercial use of my property, and really only from a liability standpoint.

We bought the property in 2000, so it was sometime after that permission was given, and yes - he does have access to his street on the other side of his property. Coming through mine (and another property next to mine) gives him access to all the open - and equally privately owned - land around the Reagan Library.

Jim - nice thought, but this guy is already in mucho hot water with the county, and he could give a rat's azz about their ability to do anything about it. Fish and game might have more clout since the dozing was right along the bank of a seasonal creek. Come to think of it, I need to contact the county and let them know that I didn't do the dozing so I don't get into trouble with them.

This guy has a history of doing whatever he pleases:
- He built an un-permitted addition joining his house to his garage, then converted his garage into house space.
- When he wanted to put in a pool, the county said he would need to have the additions permitted and inspected, and build a new garage before they would approve the pool addition. He put in the pool anyway.

I don't have any problem with what he has done - It looks great and I figure what he does with his own property is his business. I'm really pissed that he had the audacity to doze my property like it was his to do with as he pleases.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Also not an attorney but a potential problem I see with this is that if you do/say nothing (legally, in writing) and the neighbor uses the land for a certain period of time, they can legally sieze it from you.

IIRC the period of time for this is rather long (7 years or something like that), but if it's a part of your property that you never bother with and it's liable to be forgotten about, act on it now or you could end up losing that part of your property later on.

How the hell did this guy get a permit to do site improvements on someone else's property? Might want to have a little chat with the local building department. . .

[Scooter]

If you gave him permission, then you likely don't have an adverse possession issue, but you may still have to defend that action if your neighbor brings it up.

A well written cease and desist letter may take care of it. Letter from a law office will give it more teeth.

If you get along with the neighbor, then talk to him and tell him your concerns (I always encourage direct communication when feasible), but don't inflame the sitiuation. Document your conversation and put it in writing, with a copy to the neighbor with proof of delivery.

BTW: This is not legal advise.

[Seahawk]

Where in TO?

[JeffO]

verbal is worth the paper it is not written on, absolutly legaly meaningless

[Kevin G.]

Seahawk -

And you're in Maryland? It's actually a Moorpark address but is county land. If you are familiar with the area, it is about halfway between the library and Highway 23, due west of the library. Our proximity to the library makes it real interesting when any major politicos stop by - it was really wild for the week leading up to the funeral.

And to all of you my thanks for the great advice. I really appreciate it.

Kevin

[Rodeo]

There's a story, I don't know if it's true or not, that once a year, Rockefeller Center is closed off to the public. This re-asserts the property owner's control of the property and ensures that no one can claim the right to use the property has passed to the public.

You need to periodically do the same. Allowing physical alterations to the property without your written permission can only lead to bad things down the road (or down the path )

[Seahawk]

Grew up in NP near Hidden Valley...20 acres with horses. I was just curious.

We had similar issues. No verbal contract (and an old one) would compell any rational person to bulldoze. Right of way is a very particular legal right granted after written permission and consent.

Fight.

Horse people in CA are nuts...my Mom was president of the SCal Pony Club for years. The horror.

[Rot 911]

Kevin, my advice with the letter is to terminate ANY permission you may have given to him for anything. Of course he doesn't have permission to bulldoze the land. You will need to get a damage estimate and sue in small claims court for that.

[greglepore]

Agree w/ all of the above-the adverse possession issue only arises where there is no permission given, but, in any event, you can terminate his use. I'd also ask him to restore the area he bulldozed.

What was he thinking?

[Jims5543]

Originally posted by Kevin G.
Jim - nice thought, but this guy is already in mucho hot water with the county, and he could give a rat's azz about their ability to do anything about it. Fish and game might have more clout since the dozing was right along the bank of a seasonal creek. Come to think of it, I need to contact the county and let them know that I didn't do the dozing so I don't get into trouble with them.

I have another client that just got fined $180,000 for cutting down 8 Oak trees.

I know for a fact this neighbor is in a ton of hot water and can be fined lots and lots of money. If he does not pay the fine foreclosure procedings will follow. You do not screw with the D.E.P.

Wetlands are involved? You have no idea what kind of can of worms this guy opened up.

Make a couple of calls tomarrow and sit back and watch. I would not be suprised to see the dudes property seized.

[bell]

good luck with your neighbor issue.
got any pics of the trail he cut?

[Dantilla]

Originally posted by MRM
Wining without fighting is infinitely better than wining the fight.

That's a great line.

[Joeaksa]

This could be very interesting to watch...

[schamp]

First I would make sure the previous owner did not grant (in writting) an easement. Absent an easement either before or granted by you, then based on what you have said, he, your neighbor has a license, which can be revolked or terminated. That was for horses, not for bulldozing a trail. Call the police and get a report done and they will notify your neighbor. Have your attorney send the guy a letter demanding he stop crossing your property, period. Build a fence without a gate. When the guy calls and starts *****ing cut him off and refer him to your attorney.
Thats what I would do and I am not a lawyer. Document the damages or improvements by pictures. YMMV Spencer