Gun thread Ruger .44 mag Vs Beretta .45LC

[scottmandue]

I have always wanted a big wheel gun to take to the range so I started looking at some local adds because no one really gets you what you really want for Christmas.

Ruger super blackhawk, .44 mag 7.5" barrel 95%, $300

Berretta Stampede nickle, .45LC 4 5/8" barrel 95% $474

I already have a 9mm and a shotgun for home defense so this would be more of a "mongo make big noise" fun to shoot gun.

Also see a Winchester 1300 shotgun with a 18" barrel, anyone heard of such a beast?

I just shoot for fun and don't know allot about guns so I defer to the PPOT gun nuts... mean experts... for advice.

[Rick V]

Just me but I would go with the .44 mag. I cary a 45acp and I love it but I'm not a fan of the .45lc. The ammo is harder to find and very pricy. Any gun in this range will punch a rather large hole in whatever you hit so it is a personel thing.

[scottmandue]

Yeah, I'm thinking the Ruger has a longer barrel, costs less, and easier to find ammo.

Never heard much about the 45LC round so that is why I am asking.

Think I will look at the Win. 1300 tomorrow, looked it up online and I like the way it looks.

[SlowToady]

Get the Ruger. Great frame, great gun.

I've always wanted one...or one of the newish Super RedHawks. Mmmmm.

Oh yea, if you want a REALLY big gun, you can the new Super Blackhawk in .480:-D I don't remember the exact specs., but that round only produces like 40-50% of the pressure the frame can withstand...so they can produce some truly massive rounds for it (dunno if they will though..).

Whatever you get, make sure to post a lot of pictures.

[Jeff Higgins]

I own and shoot several single actions in both calibers. Colt Peacemaker in .45 Colt, Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt, Ruger Super Blackhawck in .44 mag and an Interarms Virginian Dragoon in .44 mag. I like them all. I prefer the .45 Colts, but I'm sure I could live happily ever after with a .44 mag.

The new Beretta is supposed to be one hell of a gun. It mimics the original Peacemaker in size, so it is quite a bit smaller physically than the Blackhawk/Super Blackhawk, if that matters. Both are fantastic guns. Get 'em both...

Are you a handloader? If not, stick with the .44 mag. The .45 Colt, in the right gun, will meet or exeed velocities obtained with the .44 mag using identical bullet weights. To do that, however, you must handload. I currently shoot 300 grain bullets at the same velocity (just over 1,200 fps) in both calibers out my my Blackhawk, Super Blackhawk, and Virginian Dragoon. I cast them from wheelweight alloy. The .45 Colt does it at lower chamber pressue, and noticably less noise. That can be important if you hunt with them, where you will likely shoot without ear protection.

The Peacemaker and the Baretta copy will not handle the necessary increase in breach pressure to achieve this. They are much stronger than the ammunition companies give them credit for, so it is still very easy (and safe) to greatly exceed the ballistics of anything you can buy ready loaded. My "standard" .45 Colt load pushes a 260 grain bullet to just over 900 fps with either smokeless or, believe it or not, black powder. This mimics the original black powder loading from the 1870's, which modern factory rounds fall well below. The .45 Colt is a very effective round even at this velocity; I have killed a couple pronghorn and a couple big mulies with it - with black powder.

The standard "factory" loads for the .45 Colt are pretty damn anemic. 250 grain bullets that barely hit 800 fps; pretty much what the much smaller case of the .45 ACP acieves in the 1911 autos. The manufacturers are afraid of some one loading up grandpa's old Indian War cast-iron framed Peacemaker and blowing the bejesus out of it and himself. That, and like Rick V said, it's harder to find and expensive. So if you don't roll your own, you are better off with the .44 mag.

[Rick V]

Jeff, shooting without ear protection, why. If you are hunting,or at the range you should use some type of protection. I have earmuffs that are eletronic, they have little mikes in each ear piece. You can adjust the sound levels, and they shut off whenever a loud, quick, or sharp sound is detected. I use them at the range all the time. I suspect they would work well in the woods.

[scottmandue]

Originally posted by Jeff Higgins
Get 'em both...

HA! The minute I posted this I Thought "I bet Jeff will tell me to buy both"

Originally posted by Jeff Higgins
Are you a handloader? So if you don't roll your own, you are better off with the .44 mag. [/B]

Nope not a hand loader and I need another hobbie like a hole in the head so I will probably go for the .44

The Ruger super blackhawk is listed as blue with fixed sights, I have seen some with adjustable rear sites, is that a special order item?

[Jeff Higgins]

All Super Blackhawks have adjustable sights, and pretty darn good ones at that. The fixed sight Ruger is called the "Vaquero", and is available in .44 mag. Make sure which one is being advertised. I like them both, but most folks like (and shoot with) adjustable sights much better.

Rick, when I hunt, I tend to still-hunt. That entails walking very slowly (like covering maybe 50-100 yards in an hour) and a lot of looking and listening. I usually use a rifle of some sort (usually a muzzle loader or old 19th century cartridge arm), so the noise is not a big deal. I know better with the revolvers, which are louder and put the loud end closer to my mug. It's just force of habit, learned over a lifetime of hunting. I really feel like I need to hear what is going on around me. I've lost count of the bucks I've shot that I've heard before I could see them. I suppose some of the modern noise cancelling/sound actentuating muffs would probably work great. It would just feel really weird to me. That, and I should only be shooting once...

[Shuie]

Look for a used S&W 25-5 in .45LC. If you like pain, or if you just want to exceed .44mag pressure levels, you can buy the 300gr Corbon loads. I develop a flinch from even thinking about shooting them from anything lighter than a lever action rifle

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Rick V
Jeff, shooting without ear protection, why. If you are hunting,or at the range you should use some type of protection.

He sure better not. Even if your hearing doesn't exhibit a perceptable reduction, your inner, the part involved with maintaining your balance will continue to deteriorate until you experience vertigo when standing, or in a car, or on a boat. Imagine getting motion sickness from standing up from a sitting position.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by scottmandue
I have always wanted a big wheel gun to take to the range so I started looking at some local adds because no one really gets you what you really want for Christmas.

Ruger super blackhawk, .44 mag 7.5" barrel 95%, $300

Berretta Stampede nickle, .45LC 4 5/8" barrel 95% $474

I already have a 9mm and a shotgun for home defense so this would be more of a "mongo make big noise" fun to shoot gun.

Also see a Winchester 1300 shotgun with a 18" barrel, anyone heard of such a beast?

I just shoot for fun and don't know allot about guns so I defer to the PPOT gun nuts... mean experts... for advice.

The single action Beretta has caught my eye, but not enough to buy one yet. My S & W model 25 Mountain Gun .45LC is to match my Winchester model 94 Trails End caliber.

[Jeff Higgins]

The Smith 25-5 or Mountain gun are both great guns. Be aware, however, that the cylinder is shorter than standard for the .45 Colt. Not all loads will be short enough to fit. Also, while it is the same "N" frame as the Model 29 .44 mag, Smith and Wesson do not advise any loads higher than standard pressure. The cylinder walls are quite thin on this gun, even thinner than a Peacemaker's. The 300 grain Cor-Bon, even if it is short enough to fit this gun, absolutely should not be fired in it.

Incidently, Ruger has revised the Blackhawck this year. They re-introduced the smaller ".357 mag" frame. There used to be two different sizes of Blackhawk; the standard original ".357" frame and the larger Super Blackhawk. They discontinued the small frame in the early '60's and only made the large frame from then on. Until this year. Everything other than the .44 mag Super Blackhawk has now been chambered in this smaller frame. What that means in real-world terms is that any new Blackhawk in .45 Colt is not safe for use with higher than standard pressure loads. Anyone who wants to hot-rod the .45 Colt needs to stick with just a handful of guns. The Blackhawks made from the early '60's till this year, the Freedom Arms single action, or the American made Virginian Dragoons.

As far as ear protection (and eye protection for that matter) I am absolutetely religious about wearing both at the range and out plinking. I just don't wear it when hunting. I don't know many hunters who do. Anticipating just one shot, most of us do not see the need, and willingly make the trade-off to be able to hear our surroundings better. I do have my hearing tested regularly and, in spite of what my wife may think, it shows no loss whatsoever.

[nostatic]

Originally posted by Jeff Higgins
I do have my hearing tested regularly and, in spite of what my wife may think, it shows no loss whatsoever.

LOL

I know that story...

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Jeff Higgins
The Smith 25-5 or Mountain gun are both great guns. Be aware, however, that the cylinder is shorter than standard for the .45 Colt. Not all loads will be short enough to fit. Also, while it is the same "N" frame as the Model 29 .44 mag, Smith and Wesson do not advise any loads higher than standard pressure. The cylinder walls are quite thin on this gun, even thinner than a Peacemaker's. The 300 grain Cor-Bon, even if it is short enough to fit this gun, absolutely should not be fired in it.

Jeff,

No such warning came with my revolver, can you send me the document that you saw with this warning, or send me a url for it?

[fastpat]

I did some research via the internet and found little about issues with the current model 25's. Mine is a model 25-13, by the way. The main write up, by Charles Petty, focused mainly on the strength of .45 Colt brass, and early model 25's made in the '50's, claiming that the model 29 had specific heat treatment to withstand the .44 Magnum's power, but that other N-frame based guns did not. http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_9_50/ai_n6125521

I think I will write S&W and ask if model 29-8 .44 Magnum Mountain Guns differ in their metal treatment from the virtually identical, differing only in caliber, model 25-13 Mountain Gun. I'll post an answer if I get one.

[Jeff Higgins]

Sorry Pat, I don't have anything I can reference. I picked up the pressure warnings about the 25-5 from various articles in gun magazines. There has been a lot of published data for high pressure loads in the .45 Colt, and all of it that I have seen is very careful to list the guns that will safely accept those loads. Typically the Blackhawk, Contender, Colt Anaconda, Freedom Arms, etc. The Smith, if mentioned at all, is only to warn not to use those loads in one.

While they hardly ever name names or hint at any manufacturer input into their assesments, the responsible gunwriters generally consult with them concerning metalurgy of the gun and other factors that contribute to its suitability for higher pressure loads. Sometimes they might actually mention who they consulted, but not often.

Most manufacturers would never officially publish anything indicating allowable pressures in their guns; most just defer to SAAMI specs. Even Ruger never came out and said it was o.k. to increase pressures in the Blackhawk .45 Colts. The gunwriters do manage, in a roundabout way, to indicate that the folks at Ruger don't see a problem with this. Good luck pinning them down on it officially, however. Especially in Smith & Wesson's case, where they have leaked their assesment out through these channels, you will never get them to write anything indicating their gun is safe with hotter than standard loads.

[Shuie]

No gun manufacturer is going to encourage you to shoot an over pressured cartridge regularly. The high pressure 45 Colt stuff is less than fun from a large frame revolver, but as long as you don't shoot a ton of it (and no one with a functioning brain would), the gun will be fine.

Just try to use some common sense. You DO NOT want to ream a .45 Colt revolver, or even a Model 94 lever action rifle, to shoot .454 Casul or try to load a 45 Colt cartridge to those levels. Its just not smart. Ruger doesn't even advocate it.

[Jeff Higgins]

Pat, modern .45 Colt brass is a strong as any other big bore revolver brass. There was a time when it was not, but those days are long past. The same proponents of heavy .45 Colt loads have looked into this issue as well. I think this is a holdover from the old folded head days, wherein the rim was actually hollow and there was no solid head on the case. This was done in all early brass dating from the black powder days. It was a manufacturing expedient and, since black powder does not generate the breach pressures of smokeless, they could get away with it.

Shuie, I must beg to differ. Heavy .45 Colt loads are a ton of fun to shoot. I've fired well over 10,000 rounds of my 300 grain/1200 fps loads through my 4 3/4" Blackhawk in the last 12 years with no ill effect on the gun (or shooter). That's in addition to an equal number (or probably more) of my 260 grain/900 fps load. I think if kept within reason, there is little one can do to hurt one of these things.

[wheatdog]

I used to shoot silhouette match with a 10" superblackhawk in 44 mag. Put a couple of thousand rds of 220gr sierra silhouette match over 26Gr of IMR 4227 through it. It looks brand new except for the cylinder latch scratches on the cylinder. Very tuff gun. I'm now loading some fairly stiff 45 LC stuff for my Vaquero. Is it built as strong as the blackhawks? Also loading the same for the S&W 25-5 I bought my son. Think I'll back it down some until I get some verification.

Mike

[Jeff Higgins]

How new is your Vaquero, Mike? If it's one of the new, small framed ones, I would back off a bit. And certainly in the 25-5. While you won't blow it up or anything, that kind of pounding on that gun will eventually shoot it loose.

The Model 29 was well known through its first several production runs as being a gun you didn't want to shoot full-house .44 mag loads in very much. The newer ones (somewhere in the mid-'80's to present) have addressed the problems with the earlier ones. They have stronger cylinder lock-up and other improvements. I'm not sure any of this carried over into the other N frames. Maybe some one who knows more about the Smiths can chime in.