Damn Sammy beat me to it!

Come on guys these ships were built back in the forties!

Granted submarines and aircraft carriers are taking their place in the modern navy but back in the day battleships were still needed. And as I understand it they have been retrofitted with cruise missiles and radar/computer range-finders that allow those big guns to be extremely accurate.

You guys miss the point. The entire military buildup for WWII was a mistake. The entry of the US into WWII was a mistake. We should have just sat by and let the Germans and Japanese have their way and spent all that money on foodstamps.

Neither the Japanese nor the Germans were a threat to America, nor would they have been if America had remained neutral in accordance to the law. It was the illegal activities that encouraged the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor.

The British would have either mopped up Japan, or lost their colonial empire in the far east, pretty simple. Whether Britain or Japan owned a colony was of no legal interest to America.

In europe, as soon as the first snowflake fell on the German invaders of Russia, the National Socialist German Workers Party, and their war, was doomed.

US assistance was not needed in either case.

When I was in Jr. High, I was the smallest guy in my class. The bullys would always use force to push me around. I was told by the faculty at school to "Ignore them and they will leave you alone." That did NOT work. The bullys took my ignoring them as an insult and a sign of weakness.

After I used a glue bottle and a sock to break one bylly's jaw, and I broke another bully's nose with a locker door, they started having some respect for me and left me alone.


I know that "turn another cheek" is supposed to be the way to live, but that utopian world doesn't exist. The 'bullies" are out there, and decent people have to protect each other from the bullys. Human nature will never overcome the bully in some people.

In this case, the "bullys" have explosives, and their bullying kills people. They corrupt religion to gain power and the ability to bully people without reprecussions. If we turn the other cheek, they are going to hit it too.

Any rational person does not like war, especially the people in the millitary. But we NEED them to protect us from the bullys of the world.


I am not a conservative, nor am I a liberal. I have my own political beliefs that don't match either party.


But I do know for a fact that a session of singing 'Kumbaya" is NOT going to make the bullys of the world go away all happy inside. We have to go to the bullys and use a conditioned response, called "pain" , to make them stop their bullying. The millitary is our way to inflict 'pain' on those who bully others.

In this case, the minority, led by Saddam, was bullying the majority of the Iraqi population. We have removed the biggest bully, and we are working on the rest.

I normally enjoy Pat getting everyone’s panties in a bunch but this is the most idiotic statement I have ever heard!!

The United States gave $50.1 billion of war aid in all. Of this $31.4 billion went to Britain, $11.3 billion to the Soviet Union, $3.2 billion to France and $1.6 billion to China. Canada also operated a similar program and gave $4.7 billion in supplies to Britain and Soviet Union. Your right - The US assistance was not needed but I am VERY sure it shortened the war quite a bit and saved coutless lives.

US Lend Lease to Russia (they didnt need us)

Total lend lease to the Soviet Union in WW2 by the US:

Aircraft.............................14,795
Tanks.................................7,056
Jeeps................................51,503
Trucks..............................375,883
Motorcycles..........................35,170
Tractors..............................8,071
Guns..................................8,218
Machine guns........................131,633
Explosives..........................345,735 tons
Building equipment valued.......$10,910,000
Railroad freight cars................11,155
Locomotives...........................1,981
Cargo ships..............................90
Submarine hunters.......................105
Torpedo boats...........................197
Ship engines..........................7,784
Food supplies.....................4,478,000 tons
Machines and equipment.......$1,078,965,000
Noniron metals......................802,000 tons
Petroleum products................2,670,000 tons
Chemicals...........................842,000 tons
Cotton..........................106,893,000 tons
Leather..............................49,860 tons
Tires.............................3,786,000
Army boots.......................15,417,000 pairs
A-20 - 2908
B-25 – 862
P-39 - 4719
P-40 - 2397
P-47 – 195
PBY/PBN - 54

Not to mention over 4000 Spitfires and Hurricanes from the UK

Pat, what color is the sky on your planet?

Japan invaded china and was committing genocide on the civilians. No one really knows how many, but from what I read the number was close to 6 million by the end of the war. That's a lot of people.

The US said, hay that's not cool. Knock it off. Japan said go stick yer head in it. we said, OK, that's it. we won't sell any more oil or steel to you unless you behave.
Japan got pissed and bombed our port and kills a few thousand of the US' finest. They figured we had an entire country of liberal pacifists who would just roll over and give up, but they underestimated us.

That's how it really happened. i suppose you think we should have just ignored the fact that Japan was in the process of completely taking over china and exterminating an entire country? that's hard to stomach.

BTW, If japan could invade china (which they did), they could invade the US.
They already had some of the Alleutian islands, IIRC that would qualify as a sliver of the US.

The Hood was designed to be fast and heavily armed. It had very light armor for it's displacement, and a design flaw that a lucky hit exploited to maximum effect.

The Iowa had much, much more armor than Hood. It's deck was three distinct layers of armor plated steel(Class A and STS IIRC) with two spaced gaps in between, and no critical compartments were in any of the upper decks that would be struck by a deck penetration. The Iowas were the personification of the perfected battleship. The only thing that an Iowa is really particularly vulnerable to is torpedos, especially modern keel detonators.

PS: The Iowas have nine Mk7 16"/50 guns.

Re: Re: In your face :)
 

Sorry that there are bad people in the world that would burn your schools and rape and murder your homeless folks if we didn't have things like that one above to stop them.

The Iowas were used to fight off the Japanese and the North Koreans, two distinctly unkind occupying powers.

A worthy goal, if ever there was one.

Well the British actually did it.

LOL.

Also, you are ignoring the possibilities of coalitions arrayed against the US.

For instance, HAD the germans defeated the soviets and brits, and the US sat on the sidelines and not been attacked UNTIL Japan and Germany had consolidated their gains and were united in a position of strength against a complacent and disinterested isolationist america, it is PLAUSIBLE that they could have done just what you said could not be done, but which, in point of fact, has already been done by the British.

The British did not conquer any of America, invade, yes, conquest is much more than an invasion. The US government has invaded Iraq, but failed in it's attempted conquest.

Quote:

Also, you are ignoring the possibilities of coalitions arrayed against the US.

The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.
-H. L. Mencken

Quote:

For instance, HAD the germans defeated the soviets and brits, and the US sat on the sidelines and not been attacked UNTIL Japan and Germany had consolidated their gains and were united in a position of strength against a complacent and disinterested isolationist america, it is PLAUSIBLE that they could have done just what you said could not be done, but which, in point of fact, has already been done by the British.

The British were never near defeat. The Germans had no means to invade Britain, much less conquer them. You really must think logistically about this. The German air attacks were meant to show Britain that Germany could deny them protection from the air, it broke the back of the Luftwaffe instead. The Germans never had a heavy bomber, the British built over 13,000 of them. No, the FW200 Condor doesn't count, it did not have the payload, and only 296 were built. The German decision to build the "V" wonder weapons cost them the production of over 25,000 combat aircraft because raw materials for aircraft production were sent to the "rocket works" instead.

The list goes on, and is long.

You have to consider a Germany that is master of Europe and has no other focus but to build a fleet of amphibs and warships to take the fight to the US.

And certainly by 1946 the empire of Japan could've invaded a poorly defended West Coast.

Remember, an isolationist America is not a well armed America.

If the Germans hit us from the East and the Japs from the West in 1946 simultaneously, and we are still flying around in P-40s and driving around in M3A1 Lee tanks, well....it would take us a long time to un-funk ourselves from such a mess.

We'd still win, but it would be really ugly for a while.

Agreed, but I'm pretty sure that's where ..... stands.

As if Britain was defenseless, which is not only not true, but were welll on their way to fielding heavy bombers, which began service BEFORE the US government arrived in any numbers. Further, Britains light and medium bombers were having their way as well since Goering had broken the back of the Luftwaffe's offensive capability in 1940. You remember that, do you not?

Quote:

And certainly by 1946 the empire of Japan could've invaded a poorly defended West Coast.

The west coast was never poorly defended.

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Remember, an isolationist America is not a well armed America.

You must be kidding? America was heavily armed by 1938-39, and became more so as time went on. Isolationism does not mean defenseless, no matter what your socialist teachers said.

Quote:

If the Germans hit us from the East and the Japs from the West in 1946 simultaneously,

With what? Neither of those countries had any such capability and certainly the Japanese had no such goals. The Japanese saw themselves as logical replacements for the european powers that had dominated southeast, east, and the western pacific areas for over 100 years, and that's about it. They had no ambitions beyond that, and considering how difficult it would have been to keep all of that, it's likely they'd have had a contraction back to a governable area.[/b][/quote]

Quote:

and we are still flying around in P-40s and driving around in M3A1 Lee tanks, well....it would take us a long time to un-funk ourselves from such a mess. We'd still win, but it would be really ugly for a while.

The Lockheed P-38 production deliveries began in the summer of 1941, the P-51 flew in October of 1940, the P47 in the summer of 1941. None were dependent on US government involvement in a war, all were funded by congress to give defensive capability meaning. Most medium and heavy bombers flew then as well, the first B-17's were on their way to Pearl Harbor when the Japanese attacked.

Your notion that America would have been defenseless in 1945-46 isn't rationally based as easily seen.

guys, it's pointless.... like explaining sex to a virgin.

oh Dave, don't ruin it by making sense
Rika

I know it like beating a dead horse with you but you really need to get more us to speed on your history.

Britain, while succeeding in beating back the Germans was in no way “having their way” with them afterwards. If you look at the wars % of bombs dropped on Germany you can plainly see. Britain did not have the offensive capacity needed to advance and defeat Germany. Not to they never would have the capacity but after the Battle of Britain they were drained.

The % of all allied bombs dropped were
1940 - .8%
1941 – 2.0%
1942 – 3.0% - Hardly “having their way”
1943 – 12.8%
1944 – 57.9% - US in full swing
1945 – 23.5%

Luftwaffe Aircraft Used Only Against Allied Bombers
1940 – 0%
1941 – 7%
1942 – 17%
1943 – 21%
1944 – 29%
1945 – 50%

There is no way Britain alone would have been able to mount the D-Day invasion without the US. Think about how long it would have lasted?? How many more millions would have died????

Re: In your face :)
 

Ahem, back to the point at hand...

Given what she was designed for, I think she'd be in a pretty damn good mood - she's in her element.

Kinda like a 935 at speed...

:D

I agree....

Hey Dave, shot any pool lately?

To what law, Pat? You squander your equity in such pointless ways.