Rumsfield's Parting Thoughts

[Nostril Cheese]

Catch a lot of Janet flights there, fint?

[Joeaksa]

NC,

If you have ever flown on one of the "Janet" birds, they are nothing special inside. Not the newer versions and they are loud, the old -200 series 737's were rode hard and put away wet.

These old gals get 3-6 short to medium legs a day and while the maintenance is very good they are really getting long in the tooth...

[JSDSKI]

Joe,
Thanks for your reasoned response. I agree that we should give more weight to experience. OTOH, experience does not guarantee wisdom. I wish GWB had listened to those in his circle with military and/or civilian experience with a different view of winning a "war on terror".

Sometimes those with the most focused experience don't have the time of inclination to step back for a bigger - more balanced - more nuanced view. We have a very good, very successful model for dealing with threats like Islamic authoritarianism. And we have a great deal of positive experience with that model. The Cold War was a bi-partisan policy that lasted through nine presidents and many different political changes. We contained communism everywhere and confronted them where necessary. And we won. All of us, together. Democrat and Republican.

It wasn't just military leaders who developed and ran that policy - that's all I meant. And remember, not all military leaders agree with current neo-con policy and the resulting decisions.

I agree, living in many different places is good for ones outlook, one's soul, and one's humility. I always enjoy reading your posts - while trying to moderate my blood pressure .

[Nostril Cheese]

Originally posted by Joeaksa
NC,

If you have ever flown on one of the "Janet" birds, they are nothing special inside. Not the newer versions and they are loud, the old -200 series 737's were rode hard and put away wet.

These old gals get 3-6 short to medium legs a day and while the maintenance is very good they are really getting long in the tooth...

Seems like they would have something a bit more comfortable and/or new. I can only imagine what kind of stuff gets developed there.

[svandamme]

Originally posted by Joeaksa

Correct however who is ready to have surgery done by a plumber? Television repairman fixing your 911? The gardner wiring your house? Its called experience for a very good reason. Anything important in this world and our lives deserves experience.

Joe, when it comes to invading countries, or leading a large scale military organisation , Rumsfeld did not have the experience
show me any prior track record in leading at the top military level

you know, and i know , that he didn't have that experience
when he left the navy , he was an instructor with zero active combat under his belt...

yet he felt confident enough to dismiss Shinzecki, and flat out bully him in retirement...

Shinzecki DID have the experience, he DID have the trackrecord and he HAD lead military operations

Rummy was the plumber , doing surgery
and as it turns out , he got it wrong in Iraq

again , i ask you do you agree with Rumsfeld ignoring Shinzecki when he did?? cause that is in direct contradiction to your comments about experience and right man for the job...

Originally posted by Joeaksa


We can have all the people logging onto the forum possible, but why is it that the majority of the people with experience in this area posting on this thread support one view, and largely not being listened to, and the rest of the people (and one of them is not even living in America, and not an American) support a different view.

it's called a forum for just that reason, a place to discuss things
there's no section in Waynes rules that excludes non Americans from discussing American policy and how American policy affects non american folks, if you don't like it , don't read it , it's your right

if you can't take the comments, then perhaps you should urge your governement from meddling outside it's borders as if it were the police of the world... high trees catch a lot of wind...

Originally posted by Joeaksa


One would think that unless they wanted the plumber to start preforming surgery on people, that the smarter people in this word would listen to the experienced military people. Its sure not being done on this forum most of the time.

then why didn't Rummy listen to his top General?
why did he dismiss the Powel Doctrine, and invented his own Doctrine?

Originally posted by Joeaksa


I have lived in 6 countries in my short life and hope to live in 1 or 2 more before "heading West." I just get tired of so many people who do not live in America ranting and raving about how bad it is, how we are the worst country in the world and such.

never said the America was the wost country in the world, you're a bit overreacting there

Originally posted by Joeaksa


Also, why are so many people dying every day trying to get into such a terrible country?

people die every day to get into the EU just the same
that's no measurement for moral supremacy
it's a measurement for better living standards than the origin of these folks...

[MRM]

Rummy's exit memo can be paraphrased as follows:

"Yes, in hindsight, I am as stupid as everyone said."

Implied but not said out loud: "P.S. George, so are you".

[stevepaa]

But we will proabably have to wait twenty years for an apology like McNamara's

Of course, Rummy was just too proud too listen to McNamara anyhow.

[fintstone]

Posts like these only reinforce Joe's comments. Clearly the posts regarding Eric Shinseki being dismissed by Rumsfeld, etc are simply repetition of outright lies. Shinseki retired on the date he had projected before Rumsfeld even took office. Although Rumsfeld and Shinseki had a great deal of differences regarding the composition of the Army (Shinseki favored a cold war type military while Rumsfeld advocated a faster more flexible force)....history appears to have proven Rumsfeld right...not Shinseki. This was the source of animosity between the two, not Iraq. The testimony regarding Iraq was just a parting shot by a dissed general who was still fighting the coild war and wrong about just about everything.

[Dottore]

Originally posted by Joeaksa


I just get tired of so many people who do not live in America ranting and raving about how bad it is, how we are the worst country in the world and such. Also, why are so many people dying every day trying to get into such a terrible country?


Joe

Joe:

I think America is probably one of the very finest countries on this earth. Perhaps the very finest.

That said, the current administration is apalling. Some of my friends think they are merely incompetent. I think they are war criminals, and should be put on trial.

That is the range of views with which I am familiar. I don't know many people whose views of your current administration fall outside of this range. And THAT is what us non-Americans find upsetting.

It is important to draw a distinction between the country and the people on the one hand, and the administration on the other.

I think it is a sorry thing that Americans have become so complacent, so highly medicated, so brainwashed by CNN, Fox and USA Today - that they don't storm Washington and string the current administration up by their toes. In another era this would surely have happened.

[fintstone]

Originally posted by svandamme
Joe, when it comes to invading countries, or leading a large scale military organisation , Rumsfeld did not have the experience
show me any prior track record in leading at the top military level

...

Rumsfeld was in the Navy ROTC in college and then served in the Navy from 1954 to 1957. From 1957 until 1975 he served in the Navy Reserve until he became Secretary of Defense (the first time) in 1975. He retired from the Navy in 1989 in the rank of Captain and his rank would have likely equaled Shinseki's if he had remained drilling after 1975...but couldn't as SecDef.
Serving twice as SecDef seems to me to be leading at a top military level...and Captain (0-6) is pretty high in the food chain as well. It is funny that Rumsfeld's experience (including about 7 years as SecDef) is worth nothing while Murtha's reserve time was somehow the holy grail. Perspective!

[Sonic dB]

Well basically Rumsfeld lied to the American people all along then...
He always seemed like such a prick in those press conferences.

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by Dottore
Joe:

I think America is probably one of the very finest countries on this earth. Perhaps the very finest.

That said, the current administration is apalling. Some of my friends think they are merely incompetent. I think they are war criminals, and should be put on trial.

I think it is a sorry thing that Americans have become so complacent, so highly medicated, so brainwashed by CNN, Fox and USA Today - that they don't storm Washington and string the current administration up by their toes. In another era this would surely have happened.

The last administration (Clinton) was even worse, so lets just all agree that we need a change for this country.

Totally agree with your last paragraph and have started watching Fox and BBC for my news information. CNN and the usual American news media are worthless for unbiased coverage.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Joeaksa
The last administration (Clinton) was even worse, so lets just all agree that we need a change for this country.

Totally agree with your last paragraph and have started watching Fox and BBC for my news information. CNN and the usual American news media are worthless for unbiased coverage.

No, Clinton was bad, but Bush is significantly worse. Clinton's war crimes killed about 4,000 people, Bush's war crimes have killed over half a million.

By that standard alone, Bush is worse.

Then we come to Bush's spending like he's Lyndon Johnson reincarnate, threatening war like Teddy Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, or worse.

And more.

[m21sniper]

Clinton was worse because he ignored the gathering storm for eight years despite numerous attacks against us and our interests, and there was simply nothing illegal about the Iraq war. It was authorized fifty-three ways to sunday.

[stevepaa]

Originally posted by m21sniper
Clinton was worse because he ignored the gathering storm for eight years despite numerous attacks against us and our interests, and there was simply nothing illegal about the Iraq war. It was authorized fifty-three ways to sunday.

false and false, as has been repeatedly shown on this board, but you were already told that before.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by m21sniper
Clinton was worse because he ignored the gathering storm for eight years despite numerous attacks against us and our interests, and there was simply nothing illegal about the Iraq war. It was authorized fifty-three ways to sunday.

That's not true, but as stevepaa mentioned, you've had this pointed out before. Look in the thread about the Bush indictment, it's all laid out in that, point by point, with irrefutable supporting evidence.

[m21sniper]

Originally posted by stevepaa
false and false, as has been repeatedly shown on this board, but you were already told that before.

I have no idea what sort of leftist delusion you live in, but both assertions in my last post are 100% accurate.

Sorry charlie.

[m21sniper]

Originally posted by m21sniper
I have no idea what sort of leftist delusion you live in, but both assertions in my last post are 100% accurate.

Sorry charlie.

Give me a link and i will refute it point by point.

[JSDSKI]

The Iraq Study Group report states clearly that the original troop levels and post battle stability plans ordered up by Rumsfield were inadequate at best and optimistically negligent at worst. It always strikes me how easy war strategy and "nation building" must seem at the highest levels of our government. I will never understand how or why Generals with "boot on the ground" experience are so easily ignored during actual planning.
Why the hell were they put in command authority positions if no one is going to pay attention to what they say? As it turned out, the generals (Shinseki - sp ?) were right and Rumsfield and Wolfowitz (neither with real battle experience) were far off the mark.

Too bad they didn't follow the Powell Doctrine.

Too bad they never read State Dept's post war security plan for Iraq.

[dafischer]

Originally posted by fintstone
Rumsfeld is brilliant. He is just so far ahead of the rest of you military neophytes that you will never understand. Fighting a war is much like buillding a Porsche...it is always more expensive and takes longer than you could ever imagine until you do it yourself.

That's a hoot! Please enlighten us on all of Rummy's extensive past military experience that led to his "brilliant" handling of this debacle.

Edited for not having read the full thread before shooting my mouth off:

So you told us. Let's see, ROTC, 3 years active Navy, Reserves Captain. Now there's qualification for SecDef if I ever saw it.

I'm still laughing.