Death Penalty moratorium

[Porsche-O-Phile]

What do you guys think about this? On the one hand I tend to think it might be a good deterrant if convicted murderers were executed in the same manner as their victims, but on the other I see the wisdom in "an eye for an eye makes the world blind".

Eliminating capital punishment (or suspending it) because of wrongful convictions is one thing; eliminating or suspending it because boohoo - a few convicted capital murderers might experience some momentary discomfort before they depart this world (arguably to experience an eternity of suffering and torture, depending on your views). Why the heck is this "cruel and unusual"? I don't get judges sometimes. . .



http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/12/15/diaz.execution.ap/index.html



Executions halted in 2 states after botched injection
POSTED: 6:07 p.m. EST, December 15, 2006



OCALA, Florida (AP) -- Gov. Jeb Bush suspended executions in Florida after a medical examiner said Friday that prison officials botched the insertion of the needles when a convicted killer was put to death earlier this week.

Separately, a federal judge in California imposed a moratorium on executions in the nation's most populous state, declaring that the state's method of lethal injection runs the risk of violating the constitutional ban on cruel and unusual punishment.

U.S. District Judge Jeremy Fogel ruled in San Jose that California's "implementation of lethal injection is broken." But he said: "It can be fixed."

Fogel said the case raised the question of whether a three-drug cocktail administered by the San Quentin State Prison is so painful that it "offends" the Eighth Amendment ban on cruel and unusual punishment.

Fogel said he was compelled "to answer that question in the affirmative."

California has been under a capital punishment moratorium since February, when Fogel called off the execution of rapist and murderer Michael Morales amid concerns that condemned inmates might suffer excruciating deaths.

Fogel found substantial evidence that the last six men executed at San Quentin might have been conscious because they were still breathing when lethal drugs were administered.

He ordered anesthesiologists to be on hand, or demanded that a licensed medical professional inject a large, fatal dose of a sedative instead of the additional paralyzing agent and heart-stopping drugs that are normally used. But no medical professional was willing to participate.

In Florida, medical examiner Dr. William Hamilton said Wednesday's execution of Angel Nieves Diaz took 34 minutes -- twice as long as usual -- and required a rare second dose of lethal chemicals because the needles were inserted clear through his veins and into the flesh in his arms. The chemicals are supposed to go into the veins. Hamilton, who performed the autopsy, refused to say whether he thought Diaz died a painful death.

"I am going to defer answers about pain and suffering until the autopsy is complete," he said. He said the results were preliminary and other tests may take several weeks.

Bush created a commission to examine the state's lethal injection process in light of Diaz's case, and he halted the signing of any more death warrants until the panel completes its final report by March 1.

The governor said he wants to ensure the process does not constitute cruel and unusual punishment, as some death penalty foes argued bitterly after Diaz's execution. Florida has 374 people on death row; it has carried out four executions this year.
Medical findings contradict prison officials

Diaz, 55, was put to death for murdering the manager of a Miami topless bar during a holdup in 1979.

The medical examiner's findings contradicted the explanation given by prison officials, who said Diaz needed the second dose because liver disease caused him to metabolize the lethal drugs more slowly. Hamilton said that although there were records that Diaz had hepatitis, his liver appeared normal.

Executions in Florida normally take no more than about 15 minutes, with the inmate rendered unconscious and motionless within three to five minutes. But Diaz appeared to be moving 24 minutes after the first injection, grimacing, blinking, licking his lips, blowing and appearing to mouth words.

As a result of the chemicals going into Diaz's arms around the elbow, he had a 12-inch chemical burn on his right arm and an 11-inch chemical burn on his left arm, Hamilton said.

Florida Corrections Secretary James McDonough said the execution team did not see any swelling of the arms, which would have been an indication that the chemicals were going into tissues and not veins.

Diaz's attorney, Suzanne Myers Keffler, reacted angrily to the findings.

"This is complete negligence on the part of the state," she said. "When he was still moving after the first shot of chemicals, they should have known there was a problem and they shouldn't have continued. This shows a complete disregard for Mr. Diaz. This is disgusting."

Earlier, in a court hearing in Ocala, she had won an assurance from the attorney general's office that she could have access to all findings and evidence from the autopsy. She withdrew a request for an independent autopsy.

David Elliot, spokesman for the National Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty, said experts his group had contacted suspected that liver disease was not the explanation for the problem.

"Florida has certainly deservedly earned a reputation for being a state that conducts botched executions, whether its electrocution or lethal injection," Elliot said. "We just think the Florida death penalty system is broken from start to finish."

Florida got rid of the electric chair after two inmates' heads caught fire during executions in the 1990s and another suffered a severe nosebleed in 2000. Lethal injection was portrayed as a more humane and more reliable process.

Twenty people have been executed by injection in Florida since the state switched from the electric chair in 2000.

Lethal injection is the preferred execution method in 37 states.

[Burnin' oil]

I have many concerns about the death penalty, but the criminal's comfort level ain't one of 'em

[sammyg2]

If your son or daughter was murdered by someone on death row, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

Let em burn in hell.

[m21sniper]

If your son or daughter were on death row it'd be all you'd want to talk about.

I have no sympathy for the guilty, but i do not trust the system.(a recurring theme with me i guess, lol).

That being said, cop Killer Mumia Abu Jamal should fry.

Patrolman Daniel Faulkner, PPD...murdered by Mumia Abu Jamal.

[Rick V]

Personally I feel the whole system of capitol punishment should be re-done.
1 it should be used in ALL states.
2 forget the soft way of doing it. Let the survivors chose the method of death.
3 it should be expanded to include violent sex offenders, when children are involved
4 It should be administered by the survivors, or the family.
5 The time from conviction to exicution should be shortned, not the 10-20 years it takes to "off" our most delightfull members of society.

Personally I like the idea of locking them in a room, covered with brown gravy, and a rabid, horney wolverine.

[on2wheels52]

When life is so fragile and short, it's unfortunate that there are people (99% male for some reason) that, as my friend Tex would say, "need killin'"
Jim

[Porsche-O-Phile]

OK, not defending this mamby-pamby coddling of convicted violent criminals, but let me just make a quick counterpoint here to play devil's advocate and see what you guys think:

Throughout the course of human history in other societies and during different time periods, very violent, public and horrendous methods of punishment have been used - we had public lynchings, drawing and quartering, torture on the rack, burnings at the stake, impalements, etc. Some really horriffic methods of potential punishment for those convicted of crimes. Yet, people STILL committed the crimes. There were still murders, rapes, incestual relations, etc.

Wouldn't this tend to indicate that the method of punishment is NOT the deterrant that everyone seems to think it would be? I mean, what does it accomplish other than satisfying simple blood lust and primal vengeance?



For the record, one of my best friends was murdered during the course of a robbery at the restaurant where he was working eleven years ago this past summer. The robbers/killers shot him because Scott (my friend) was "in the wrong place at the wrong time" and could possibly have implicated them in the robbery. They did not receive the death penalty but lengthy prison sentences, which they are still serving. So please reserve the comments about "if it happened to you, you'd want to rip off so-and-so's head and ***** down their neck" - I did think that for a while, but in desire to have a serious discussion, I also think that in retrospect if these two HAD gotten the death penalty, I doubt it would make me feel much better. Obviously his family got it worse, but I still have been touched by evil criminal behavior in a bad way and am not just a sideline observer to this process. . .

[Aurel]

According to Amnesty International, during 2005 at least 2,148 people were executed in 22 countries, 94% in China, Saudi Arabia, Iran, and the United States alone. Looks to me like most civilized countries have gotten rid of the death penalty, and that it is a characteristic of opressive regimes. So, I`d rather not see the USA where I live be in that category. Plus, it does not work as a deterrent anyways. One must understand that when somebody commits a horrendous crime, they don`t hold much value in human life, including theirs. The bible has thought forgiveness, and only God should give or take life. And like Jeff said, often it does not make the famillies-relatives feel much better.

Aurel

[Rick V]

An eye for an eye...............I'm suprised I an the first one to post that one. (here)
My Daughter was raped when she was 14, by a 21 year old. He showed no remorse, he didn't even fight the charges. The sentance he recieved was IMO a frigging joke. 18 years. I would like to see him hung,shot,then burned. Only after I got to hold him down and let my (now 17 year old) daughter have her way with him. To this day her face grows cold and blank with a far away look of hatred and seathing anger when anything comes up to do with him.
The death penalty should apply in this case, and all like it. It would deture!
My only hope is that someone, big,hung and smelly makes this little punk someones "honey" in the pen.
PS I suport the death penalty and don't give a crap if some murdurer suffers for a few min. while he is going away. Make the suffering last for a few hours..................that'll be better. JMO

[Lothar]

Originally posted by m21sniper
If your son or daughter were on death row it'd be all you'd want to talk about.

I have no sympathy for the guilty, but i do not trust the system.(a recurring theme with me i guess, lol).

That being said, cop Killer Mumia Abu Jamal should fry.

Patrolman Daniel Faulkner, PPD...murdered by Mumia Abu Jamal.

It is sad that that bastard, Mumia, has been glorified by the media. He is human garbage that needs to be taken out.

Yet, NPR and a bunch of commie celebs have taken up his cause. There is absolutely no chance that the guy was wrongly convicted or sentenced. Only a bunch of kooks could defend his continued existence.

[artplumber]

Originally posted by Aurel
According to Amnesty International, during 2005 at least 2,148 people were executed in 22 countries, 94% in China, Saudi Arabia, Iran, and the United States alone. Looks to me like most civilized countries have gotten rid of the death penalty, and that it is a characteristic of opressive regimes.

You have got to be kidding. "civilization=no death penalty". Any life is better than no life? (Including, on the other side, keeping terminally ill people alive).

...One must understand that when somebody commits a horrendous crime, they don`t hold much value in human life, including theirs. The bible has thought forgiveness, and only God should give or take life.

That is the point of the death penalty. The same people who believe that life doesn't hold much value don't get to kill again, and civilization doesn't just keep them around as exhibits to what people can become (keeping them alive serves what purpose BTW?)

And if you're going to get biblical, while one is instructed not to take a life and to forgive, the Bible in no way approves the absence of punishment. That is what the eye for an eye quote arises from.

[m21sniper]

Originally posted by Lothar
It is sad that that bastard, Mumia, has been glorified by the media. He is human garbage that needs to be taken out.

Yet, NPR and a bunch of commie celebs have taken up his cause. There is absolutely no chance that the guy was wrongly convicted or sentenced. Only a bunch of kooks could defend his continued existence.

I concur, there is no way Mumia is innocent.

[m21sniper]

Originally posted by DavidI
I agree with Rick V! I do not believe the death penalty is a deterrent. Evil people are just that, evil. However, it separates the evil person from the rest of society. Putting these monsters in prison is not the right thing. Prison is not how most people think it is. The convicts have access to many of the "luxuries" that free society does.

My 2 cents, David

If you could prove to me that you are 100% correctly executing a guilty man, i'd pull the lever for you myself.

Unfortunately....

I suspect of course that years in prison is a FAR worse fate than getting off easy by getting years of special treatment on death row followed by an eventual needle prick.

F that, if they really did it i say stick 'em in general population and let the other murderin' swine mete out jailhouse justice to the guilty.

It is no wonder that most of us support the death penalty though. We are all descendants of long lines of murderers, or at least, so says freud.

[Aurel]

Maybe just make the families as jury and let em decide...Those debates are like abortion: why should people who are not involved in a tragedy make decisions that affect those who are involved?

Aurel

[Moses]

So the poor bastard's IV infiltrated? Boo-freaking-hoo. It happens in every hospital in the world every single day. It's happened to me. No big deal. You start another line. I can't believe an infiltrated IV gets the attention of the governor. What an idiot.

Personally, I don't look at capital punishment as a punishment at all. It's merely an extermination. Like calling the Orkin man to rid society of particularly destructive vermin. I would rather the eliminate the death penalty all together, provided we make the following changes to our prison system;

(The following rules apply those convicted of violent crimes only)

1) Prisoners will have no contact with the outside world. No radio, TV, newspapers, letters from home or visitors. No prison library, internet or video games.

2) Those that wish to work may do so. Minimum wage earned will be sent to victims and their families. If prisoners do not wish to work, they are confined to their cell.

3) No indeterminite sentencing. 10 years is 10 years. Life is life. No early release.

4) Prisons will be allowed unannounced inspections by community groups to ensure humane conditions.

The term "penitentiary" is derived from the quaint and outdated notion that a man who has committed a crime will become "penitant" having been given time away to reflect on the nature of his crimes. It is based on a naive religious concept that isolation and prayer will save the criminals soul. Time to abandon that foolishness.

The sole purpose of a prison is to physically remove a dangerous person from society. At this task, our present system fails miserably. we routinely give pedophiles and rapists early release to make room for a kid who was caught selling pot or stealing cars. Pure stupidity.

[sammyg2]

Auriel, how about we talk about what the bible really says about murder?

Genesis 9:6:
"Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man." (KJV)

Exodus 21: 12-17 (RSV)
"Whoever strikes a person mortally shall be put to death. If it was not premeditated, but came about by an act of God, then I will appoint for you a place to which the killer may flee. But if someone willfully attacks and kills another by treachery, you shall take the killer from my altar for execution."

Leviticus 24: 19-23 (RSV)
Anyone who maims another shall suffer the same injury in return: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; the injury inflicted is the injury to be suffered. One who kills an animal shall make restitution for it; but one who kills a human being shall be put to death. You shall have one law for the alien and for the citizen: for I am the LORD your God.

Numbers 35:31
"Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death."
There is a lot more. I can keep gonig if you like.

Jesus said the laws of god (set forth in the old testiment) shall not be changed, in no many words.
When he stopped the stoning and said "he among you who is without sin, cast the first stone" he did it because he was exposing the hypocracy of the pharissees, not because he did not support the death penalty.

It is very clear: God wants murderers to be put to death.

[Racerbvd]

How can anyone say the death penalty is not a deterrent??? Show me ONE person, just one, who has committed another crime after this punishment. Remember, this is meant to be punishment. As many of you know, I have a friend on Death Row, and went to visit (1st time, he had been there 13 years) last week, so I do have a interest, I also knew the people he was accused of killing, friend or not, if he did it, punishment should be served. I say bring back Old Sparky and set the voltage all the way up. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

[Vipergrün]

Wow, I just got done reading our local paper and was appalled at reading the story. Cruel and unusual punishment is what occured when the scumbags on death row raped, murdered, and totured their victims. Not missing a friggen vain whilst inserting the IV for lethal injection.

In addition to fast-tracking executions for these low-lifes, I also believe that ALL constitutional, if not human rights should be immediately revoked. These rights were violated on the victims and should be for their killers and rapists, etc, as well. I am outraged at our legal system and the way it sympathizes with the rights of those who commit violent crimes.

I think a 3-5 year cap, if that, should be placed on death row stays until execution. Allow one appeal for due diligence, no more 20 year stays on death row eating up taxpayers money.

I also think that ALL laws should be consistent from state to state. Murder is murder and rape is rape, all states should recognize the same punishments. It makes me sick that a robber in one state will get more prison term than a rapist in different state.

Rant off....

[legion]

I have a simple solution:

Put these people in the general population. The problem will solve itself.

[Aurel]

Originally posted by Racerbvd
How can anyone say the death penalty is not a deterrent??? Show me ONE person, just one, who has committed another crime after this punishment. Remember, this is meant to be punishment. As many of you know, I have a friend on Death Row, and went to visit (1st time, he had been there 13 years) last week, so I do have a interest, I also knew the people he was accused of killing, friend or not, if he did it, punishment should be served. I say bring back Old Sparky and set the voltage all the way up. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

It is not a deterrent for other criminals. Obvioulsy, those on death row are not going to commit any more crimes.

Aurel