I've seen it used. I have stayed away from it. One part membranes worry me. that's just me. ( Ultraset is an exception )

I like Mapei PRP-315 for crack isolation. As a true moisture barrior, I'm sold on sheet vinyl.
The peel and stick over a primered surface seems to be the best solution. ( Esp. on a fresh slab with cracks )

The thing with Custom's "Red Guard", is DYI'ers are lulled into thinking this is an exceptable pan liner. I reject advice from the Home Depot staff.


KT

Wise words...



KT

Actually, try to imagine that sedan melted down into a 1/4 inch deep puddle evenly distributed all over the floor. :)

On rental saws- Look around for a good one otherwise you will be sad. I got a nearly new, unsure of make, tile saw that worked perfectly. I unfortunately had to do some diagonal cuts on my 16 inch tile where it met a transition to the kitchen at an angle. Not a problem with the right saw, but sometimes slate doesn't like pointy ends so beware. Anything other than a good wet saw will be a nightmare.

On screws and Hardibacker - I pre-drilled with a 1/8th masonary bit. Made it a lot easier but you have to use strong screws to sink them in. The heads will snap off of cheapies. Installing the Hardibacker over thinset sounds like a pita and a mess. I'm sure it's the best way to go but I'de have a hard time psyching myself up for that one. My old kitchen was done with screws and never a creak or crack after 5 years.

Keep the ideas coming, fellas! This is great!!!

Okay, been doing some thinking about this job today and have come up with a few questions.

1. How clean does the HardieBacker need to be when I'm applying the thinset and tiles? Will a sweep & vacuum just prior to laying the thinset be good enough?

Obviously I'm not going to finish this job in a day, so, once I have the HardieBack down, we'll be forced to walk on it some just through our day to day living. We've got a lot of rugs and mats that I can lay out for the heavy traffic areas, and such, but are there any other considerations I need to be concerned with.

2. How will the HardieBacker stand up to the traffic until I get it covered with the slate?

It's just my wife and I, and our two Shih Tzus, so it's not like we'll be tracking in mud from the playground or anything like that. (Although, I imagine I'll be doing some yard work as time goes by...but I've promised my wife to take off my shoes before coming into the house... :) )

3. Speaking of our Shih Tzus, how "traqic" will it be if one of them has an accident on the HardieBoard? Simple clean-up with bleach, maybe some vinegar?

(This question applies to the slate floor as well.)

They're home alone all day, kept in an area where the floor is the existing linoleum, and are usually pretty good. We leave training pads out for them during the day, just in case, because the days can occasionally get a little long.

Randy

Randy,
To answer your questions, use a shop vac before laying the thinset, then shop vac the Hardibacker before laying the tile. I have never had a problem with traffic on Hardibacker, just don't roll anything really heavy onto the edge--walking on it shouldn't be a problem--you can crush it. As for the dogs, the Hardibacker will not break down under water--again it shouldn't be a problem. When you get your slate down I would seal it if you are worried about the dogs. Another thing to check out is Home Depot's stainproof grout. It is a pain to use but you cannot stain it--I have tried everything I can think of including brake fluid, oil, etc--it will not stain. I always use thinset (Flexbond) under the Hardibacker, then use Hardi's screws--my clients are paying for a professional job so why not do it the right way--and afterall it is only 56 screws per sheet, not that I have ever counted or anything. If you work one sheet at a time it really isn't that bad, I always precut and test fit my Hardibacker before I start laying it with the thinset and screws.

KT, Redgaurd is a very good product if you follow the directions and use it like Custom recommends. For an experiment we took a shoebox and sealed it with Redgaurd, then filled it with water. After two weeks it didn't leak and I was tired of refilling it so I gave up. Personally, I don't use it but it does work and a few friends have been happy with it.

One last thing for anyone looking for good flooring advice is to ask around at the home improvement stores in other departments for who is the best. I was trained by three flooring masters at Home Depot who had over 110 yrs combined experience with flooring. Granted none of us any longer work there but that is a different story. If anyone has any questions feel free to PM me.

Remember, no twenty year warranty from James Hardie unless you do it.

Use nails...Screws hurl.



KT

800 SF. Wow, you're gonna hurt after that job. ;) I recommend a hot tub and/or heating pad to repair your body each evening. You'll be pleased with the end result, though.

Agree on the thinset under Hardibacker. Tile and stone is good for a lifetime. Why compromise on the install?

I use screws, but the roofing nailer sounds like the hot setup.

KT, the local tile place has a Rubi bridge tile saw on closeout for $990. Do you believe there is any benefit to the bridge saw vs the typical tile saw with sliding tray? I would like to upgrade and am comparing the slew of different saws.

BTW, I prefer using metric tape measures when laying tile. It's a lot easier when measuring for cuts and also when laying the grid. I have no idea what the pros do, but it works for my brother and I.
jurgen

Found this saw at Harbor Freight. At $199, the price is certainly right. Anyone have any experience with Chicago Electric Tools?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1167802400.gif

Here's the link to the source:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=92386

Randy

The roofing nail gun is fantastic.

I can install 400 square feet by myself in one day. Done it many times.

120 nails in a coil. It takes 88 nails on a sheet of backer.
I chase all the high nails and set a nail next to every nail that went too deep with hand nails.

Fiber glass tape all the joints with acrylic modified thinset using a flat trowell. ( plastering trowell ).

On the bridge saws... Unless you are planning on 24" tiles or bigger, I don't know why you would need this saw.

Randy, the harbor freight saw might be a good bargin for this one job.

I would NEVER use anything from them for day-in, day-out use.

I'm a fan of MK.
I have the 770, 101 and 1070 as well as a handheld circular saw.
Diamond blade on a grinder has it's place. Very messy.

Wear ear plugs, fellas. ;)


KT

Mainly what I'm looking at (at this point) is price and diagonal cut capacity...not necessarily in that order.

I've looked at a few Felkers (The Felker F-75 is mentioned a lot of places as a great saw) but the ones I find are either too "underpowered" (comparatively), or they aren't able to cut a 16" tile diagonally. The saws that seem to have that capacity are up closer to the $1000.00 range. I was hoping to get by with maybe $500.00...certainly no more than $600.

The MK 770 is too small, though priced in my range. Of the three MK-101 models I found, only the MK-101Pro 24 will cut a 16" tile diagonally...at $1299, it's definitely out of my range. The MK 1070 certainly seems up to the task, with cutting capacity and it's 2 HP motor, it seems it would make short work of all my cutting needs, but again, at $1300, it's out of my range.

I just figured with the Chicago saw above, at the price, if I happened to wear it out, I could still get a totally new unit and still be withing the $500 range...even a third would be right at $600. Disposable saws? What a concept? ;) It also has a 1.5 HP motor.

Keep the info coming though. I really am paying close attention to what everyone is saying.

Regards,

Randy

Randy, I bought the Chicago Electric with sliding tray (not the bridge saw you have pictured) and am still using it today. My brother and I have laid down several thousand square feet (lost count a long time ago) using that junker saw, and it has served well. In my opinion, you're not going to break that saw, but you probably will wear out the blade in no time. I haven't cut slate before, so maybe the blade will be fine.
regards,
jurgen

I read most of this post and didn't see any reference to existing floor removal and potential asbestos exposure. You may want to take precautions. I just finished a 400 sf kitchen floor removal and replacement. I tented the entire area, wore a good respirator/filter and tyvek hooded coveralls, used a water/soap mixture to wet down all potentially contaminated flooring materials to be removed and bagged very carefully.

"Flooring materials including:

* 9 inch by 9 inch floor tile (older, thicker floor tile)
* 12 inch by 12 inch floor tile (commonly used today)
* Sheet linoleum
* Mastic (glue located under the floor tile or linoleum)

There have been many instances where a homeowner decides to restore the natural wood floors in his/her home. In order to do this, the current flooring (floor tile or linoleum) must first be removed along with the glue underneath. The best way to get a smooth finish is to sand the glue off the wood. However, if there is asbestos in the glue, sanding it will cause the asbestos to become airborne, thus contaminating the entire house."

That saw looks like the deal, but it pulls 24 amps at startup, so says the web site, and that's going to be an issue on a 20 amp circuit. You may have to install a special circuit, 120v 30 amp individual circuits aren't common in most homes.

Good eye, Pat, thanks!

Okay, it's now looking like this QEP 83200 is going to be the one. They carry it at Northern Tool, which is located only a few miles from home, so I can save on shipping charges.

I've read a little about QEP, and although they aren't the same caliber as an MK, a Felker or a Target, it seems as though it should be up to the task..

And at 9.2 amps, I shouldn't have to make any changes or additions to myhome electrical system. One project at a time, thanks! :D

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1167867149.jpg

Randy

If theres one thing iv learned about tile. Its that you can never have too much mortar. Especially on 12" or bigger tile. so get the biggest tooth trowel you can and go to town :)

Finally!! Yes!!

The biggest mistake do-it-yourselfers make, is using too small of a trowell. Just last night on one of these home improvement type shows, they were using a 1/4"x1/4" square notched trowell, combing it on the back of the 18x18 travertine tiles and then setting it over radiant heat netting/element. I wanted to scream.

I use a 1/2"x1/2" on 12" or bigger flat back floor tile.
The saltillo clay floor tiles I'm currently finishing up get the 3/4" round notched trowell as well as "back-buttering" them flat with a 18" swimming pool trowel.

I get about 40 square feet per 50# sack of thinset.
It is a 1000 square foot job.

Do it once!!


KT

Oh and aside from Saltillos, slate may be the dirtiest tile to work with.
Think, petrified dirt ;)

I use a "water proof" booth. I place the saw stand in a large plastic tub and make a three sided frame wrapped in clear plastic.
Total containment. I will sometimes protect the floor and work indoors.

Maybe I sholud take I picture of my booth before I break the saw down tomorrow.


KT

Please do! :) Pics are always helpful!

My thoughts are, with a wet saw, there isn't a lot of dust, but rather spattered "mud" being sprayed around by the spinning saw blade?

Randy

Amen! I cut everything outside. I also washed every tile before bringing it in. It was unbelievably messy and my driveway still is discolored just from the wash.

I learned the hard way that "back buttering" is a very good idea. My first attempt, which excluded that step, was a dismal failure. About half the tiles came loose upon drying. I'm sure the other half would have followed soon. Fortunately, I just got started before taking a break and only a few tiles needed to be redone.

I'm not sure if this is good, bad, or makes no difference, but I washed the tiles just before installing them. I back buttered them (using the smooth trowel) while they were damp, not wet. My reasoning was the thinset would stick better.

PS- I would just rent a saw. It's cheap, you'll likely get a better quality tool, and you won't have to store it when you're done. Plus, Chicago tools are hit and miss.

If anyone is looking to buy a nice wet tile saw I have this one for sale. I can band to a pallet and ship it from my shop. It has a 14" blade and sliding table. This is a very nice professional saw with a Baldor motor.

Link to more info

http://www.mytoolstore.com/target/mason02.html

It was used for one job, cutting pavers to make planted areas in a large yard.

I will sell for a fair price or trade for something else.



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1167885950.jpg

The tub and booth will catch all of the thrown off dirty water.
Slate water is ridiculously filthy. Stains everything.

The tiles are soft, you won't hurt the blade in the least.

I expect you will spend at least 16 days setting your floor.
At $35-50 per day for a rental, I think a cheap-o saw may be you best option.


KT

( put hot water in the saw tray and warm for your water/sponge bucket...ahhhhh! )

Exactly! I wouldn't be surprised if it takes me longer than that. I'll probably do a little each night after work, and spent the majority of my weekend time doing this, so 16 days seems a bit optimistic to me. I'll be much better off in the long run by pruchasing the saw.

Besides, there are a few more areas of the house that can benefit from some nicely set tile. The guest bath, the foyer, even the steps leading upstairs...some nice slate risers in between the wood treads will look great! :D

Bert, nice looking saw you have there. Unfortunately it's probably worth much more than what I'm going to be paying for the Qep model. Appreciate the offer though!

Randy

The Qep looks, from the pic, to be a nice saw and at that price you could simply pass it on to Habitat after you are done and not worry about keeping it forever.

I have rented tools before and been very disappointed at the condition. One example: Last year I rented a magnetic drill from the tool rental at Lowe’s. A good used one can be hundreds of $’s and I only needed it for one hole. I ended up rebuilding it to get the slop our of the gibbs in order to drill and ream the quality hole I needed for a dowel pin. A 45 min. job ended up being all day counting time to pick up and return the drill. I returned the drill in far better condition than I rented it in. When I told the rental counter guy about my experience and of rebuilding the tool he treated me like I had potentially ruined his tool. Go figure. I told him he should actually give my money back plus some.

I was hoping to get substantially more for mine. If you are a tool geek and plan to do more brick paver / tile work then my saw would be more of what someone would want. If not then the Qep looks like the ticket for one job.

I have purchased loads of tools from Harbor Freight and most do fine for what little I use them for.

One very important part is what Jurgen mentioned above is that their saws and cutting wheels are worthless. Buy the tool at HF but get a good saw wheel at Lowes or Home Depot (buy two, one as a spare just in case) to use on the job.

Bought a sawsall from HF recently and the tool was fine, but their blades were like butter trying to cut 18 gauge steel. Got some from HD and worked like a champ. Learned my lesson.

Saw booth:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1167969864.jpg


Current project:


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1167970032.jpg


I get to grout next week. :mad:


KT

Great looking tile job! Are you sure you don't wanna come to Atlanta??? ;)

Great idea for the booth too. Looks easy enough to build with some 1/2" PVC. Will save a lot in the clean up, I'm sure.

Well, I got the Qep saw on order. Should be here in 7 - 10 business days, so they say. No hurry though, I still have plenty of flooring to pull up and screw down.

My next trick is going to be leveling. There are a few places that are noticably lower and/or higher. Have you done any work with leveling compounds? I've seen some products at HD which claim to be self-leveling. Just pour in place and let it do it's thing. Not so sure I trust that it's as easy as that. :(

Once I get the rest of the tile up, I'l start posting some pics.

Randy

The self leveling material is very good. You MUST use it according to the instructions.

Anything over 1/16" out in 4 feet should be addressed- IMO.

I like to check the subfloor first. Hunt for high spots. Punch down the nails and using a power planer remove a layer of wood. I attach a shop vac onto the planer exhaust because it is crazy messy.

After the Hardiebacker is installed, hunt for the low spots and mark them with a crayon. Coat those areas with the Level Quik primer.

Mix the Level Quik to the consistancy of pancake batter.
Pour it into the center of your low depression and using a straight edge that will span the depression, "work" the leveling material over the low spot.
Smooth out the edges with a plastering trowell... Feather them.

Allow the material to set-up overnight even though it says you can work on it sooner. it really needs the extra time.


KT

Okay, all the linoleum has been removed and the floor has been screwed down. It took almost 10 Lbs of 8x2" deck screws, but it feels very firm. I've walked the entire floor and have not heard a single squeak. :D

I am, however, concerned about one area.

Right smack in the middle of the kitchen, I seem to have a "bowl". I used a 6' long straight edge and have found a dip, in one direction, of almost 1/2" and going perpendicularly, a dip of about 1/4". You can see what I mean in this pic.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1168226676.jpg

Should I do something to address this now, or should I just wait and fill in as much as I can when I thinset the hardiback into place?

Randy

Level Quik is good for 1" per pour, so wait until after you install the backer and fibertape all the joints.

Good job on "screwing off" :D

How long did it take? Did you use a sheet rock screwgun?


KT

Ha!!! Who knew "screwing off" could be such hard work? :eek:

Alritey, sounds like the next step is laying down the hardibacker then. GREAT!!!

For the screw job, it took half a day yesterday, and most of today. Would have gotten more done yesterday, but I ran out of screws.

I didn't use a gun at all, except for a pair of drills. My cordless with a drillbit and my 1/2" drive for setting the screws. Would have taken a lot less time, I suppose, if I didn't pre-drill, but it just seemed the thing to do.

For the hardibacker, I think I'll be picking up this nailer from Northern Tool.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1168229224.jpg

Hopefully it doesn't take too long to come in!

Randy

Good! Set the compressor to a fairly high PSI rate ( 100-120 )

You want the nails to set flat, not sink or sit proud.

I "chase the high sitting nails after installing each board and sink a hand nail next to each one that sinks too deep. "You can't overnail a subfloor".

Use 1 1/4" nails. 120 to a coil.

Wear ear plugs, hold the gun in you left hand and aim/guide with the right. Two handed gun work will save your elbow from the rebound.

Make sure the nail gun you are buying is set-up for repeat nailing with the trigger held down. The lever on the nose trips the hammer when you touch your target. You will get faster than you compressor can keep up with.

Let 'er rip!!


KT

Got another quick question for you, Trekkor.

In a few places on the floor, there are spaces between the sheets of plywood. Some of these spaces are a good 1/4" wide.

These spaces are filled with what appears to be drywall mud...plaster. The stuff breaks apart with just my fingers. My guess is that this was just filler to help the linoleum not get "creases".

Should I refill these gaps with plaster, or just make sure they're filled in with thinset while I'm laying the hardiboard?

Randy

Fill with thinset when you comb the floor with the 1/4 x1/4 notched trowell during the backer install. The joints between the backer don't have to be tight either, as you will be fiber taping with thinset there, too.


KT

Great! Thanks for the QUICK reply! :D

Randy

its always a bit of a messy job installing the hardibacker because when you nail it down the mortar splats out the edges. these things make life fun :)

I like to dry-set each piece of backer, mark the subfloor with a crayon, then spread the thinset to the lines...Less mess.


KT

Ageed. I cut & position all the backer, pencil the pieces, and then pick up and start in with the thinset. I keep the seams between boards ~ 1/4 to 1/3" wide and use fiberglass mesh tape and more mortar to fill.

It's surprising how labor intensive the screw down is. I'm no pro like KT, and I like the piece of mind with screws, so I used my corded electric drill to drive the screws sold by the underlayment co.

Outstanding prep makes an outstanding result possible.

The cool thing about using the proper amount of acrylic modified thinset under the backer is, once it cures, the backer is laminated to the subfloor as well as mechanically fastened. No air spaces that can move, potentially causing cracks in the grout or tile above.

Nails or screws, it's your choice. I've done both. Neither have ever failed on me.

I've installed 10's of thousands of square feet of this stuff.
Screwing the backer takes about 10 times as long.

From what I've seen, most people, pros included, do not take these steps seriously.
They skip the under-backer thinset, joint taping, priming and leveling.

At least it makes it easier for me to tear it out and redo it ;)


KT

Also, stagger the joints between the backer like a brick layout.
They state the 4 corners should never meet in any given place.


KT

It seems that this method will allow for a tighter, more custom fit. Count me in! :D

It took quite a few hours (and would have torn my knees up for sure had I nt used knee-pads) but it was well worth the effort. My cordless is only a 12 volt, so it would have been a little weak at times to set the screws all the way. That's why I used it only to pre-drill for the screws. I chased it using my 1/2" drive corded, which has plenty of power for setting screws.

Truer words were never spoken. (or typed :D )

I'm all about putting lots of effort into doing the prep work the correct way. I would hate to do all this work, just to have it look like schit...or worse...to have it all come apart on me. :eek:

Randy