WOOHOOO!!!! Picked up both the tile saw and the roofing nailer today. Picking up the hardibacker and modified thinset tomorrow, along with coils of roofing nails. Should be starting with the hardibacker installation tomorrow, or at least this weekend.

The saga continues. :D

Randy

Take some pics along the way.


KT

Mild hijack, but still very related-

Trekkor, Have you ever set this-

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/8...0black2jx9.jpg

Does the process differ greatly from slate?

Thanks

Is that going on the floor, like in a bathroom, or as a countertop backsplash?

That material is usually sold in 12" square sheets and is pretty easy to set as long as you are consistent with the amount of thinset you're setting it on. Obviously lots of grout that would be applied with a foam/flexible trowel and then heavy cleanup with damp sponge.

David,
Yes. It is going in a bathroom. I'm setting it as a rectangle in the center of a rectangular floor space in a bathroom and then surrounding it with a water resistant wood(ish) floor. It will also be over a heating mat for that warm, toasty feeling in the morning. Do I use the same kind of grout or is there something that needs to be added due to the huge amounts being used vs tile?

Those look like the decorative river rocks sold in small bags or bulk.

I have dealt with those before. They feel strange on the feet and I think you will get tired of them fast.

the ones I worked with were on a shower floor.
Also keep in mind the large amount of exposed grout that you will need to keep clean.


KT

I found a pic from about 6 years ago.


KT

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1168716034.jpg

trekkor- I know they feel a little weird, but a house we stay in the Twin Cities has a couple of bathroom floors like that. We like the look and have gotten used to the feel.

On the big grout- One bathroom in the tc's has white stones with white grout. I should say, had white grout. Now it's kinda tan. We want to use charcoal or black which I think will hold up appearence-wise a lot better.

I found a shot from the big travertine floor on my website.

This was the hardiebacker install.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1168717425.jpg


KT

As for the grout I would think a standard sanded variety should be fine. I really don't know if there are grout additives but I'll bet KT does. Don't be afraid to go with a lighter color grout (if that is your first preference). As long as you seal it with a high quality product you shouldn't have any problems with staining or discoloration.

I like the river stone as an accent. I agree with KT that it would be hard on the feet if the whole floor was done. Something to think about if you ever decide to sell your home...

Well, I woke up today with the plan of picking up the backer board, thinset and nails and spending the day laying it out. Ummmmm, it didn't quite happen that way...

Stopped by my local tile source, just to check out their price for backerboard. Found they had my tile on sale (I planned to get it here, anyway).

8500 Lbs later, and this is where I'm at:

A Quick Ton...
1000 Lbs of Thinset Mortar for the backerboard
1000 Lbs of Modified Thinset for the tile
200 Lbs of Grout
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1168744383.jpg

100+ Boxes of 16"x16" slate tiles
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1168744735.jpg

23 boxes (44 pcs/bx) of 6"x6" slate tiles
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1168744804.jpg

Also picked up a pallet (60 sheets) of 1/4" backerboard.

There are some beautiful colors in these tiles. This is gonna turn out looking amazing!!!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1168745241.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1168745256.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1168745292.jpg

Surprisingly, it only took me 4 hours to unload this stuff, one box at a time, and stack it in the garage, but man, am I feeling it now! :D

I'll pick up the roofing nails tomorrow...let the games begin!!!!!

Randy

Randy,
Good work! That's going to be beautiful!!

wow did you haul all that in your durango? haha

It's comical that you ask that.

Three pallets of tile (20 boxes/pallet), over two trips...I sure did! :D (Actually, my wife drove the Durango) They guys that loaded the Durango were vocally amazed at how much the Durango would carry.

The other 5 pallets (Backerboard, 2+ pallets of tile, the thinset, and the 6"x6" tiles) all fit into the back of a 14' U-Haul truck.

Randy

that is nice looking slate.
Now you get to decide how to finish it.



KT

I posted a slight miscalculation earlier. It isn't 8500 Lbs of suppies.

After doing the math, it turns out it was more like 11000 Lbs. This figures to about 14 psf of weight added to my floor.

This is gonna be fun! :D

Randy

Serious poundage, Brah! :D

I'm feeling each and everyone of them! :)

Randy

You will use twice as much thinset when setting the slate than setting the backer.
Figure 80-90 square feet with the 1/4x14 trowell for the backer.
45 feet using the 1/2x1/2 trowell when installing the slate.

Use acrylic modified for the whole job, not just the slate.
Are you using a modified thinset with the additive in the powder? The "just add water" kind?
you may have a s much as 400#'s of thinset left over from the backer install.

KT

I swear it's like you were reading my mind!!!

No work on the floor today. The weather was beatiful outside, so I took advantage of it and got caught up on some neglected yard chores.

While outside working though, I got to thinking this exact question. "How big of an area will a bag of thinset cover?" As usual, you're full of great info, thanks!!!

The stuff I picked up for the slate:
PRODUCT DESCRIPTION
PRO M-BOND ULTRA® 918 is used as a
professional grade bond coat for setting
high lug, absorptive, semi-vitreous, vitreous
ceramic tiles and natural stone for service
in residential and commercial use. It is used
in a mortar bed from 3/32" to 3/16" (2.4 to
4.8 mm) after the tiles have been properly
embedded. PRO M-BOND ULTRA 918 has
excellent water and impact resistance, is
water cleanable, non-flammable, good for
exterior work and requires no soaking of tiles.
PRO M-BOND ULTRA 918 mortar is not affected
by prolonged contact with water, but does
not form a waterproof barrier. PRO M-BOND
ULTRA 918 provides a permanent installation
with higher bond strength and lower material
and labor costs than conventional Portland
cement mortar beds.

The salesman at the tile store said that The C-Cure Thinset Mortar will work just fine with the backerboard, especially since I'll be nailing it in place in addition to the thinset.

PRODUCT DESCRIPTION
THINSET 911 is a factory blend of Portland
cement, sand and a unique blend of special
additives. C-Cure THINSET 911 produces an
excellent bond with greater coverage than
conventional dry-set mortars for the
installation of ceramic tile.
BASIC USE
THINSET 911 is used as a bond coat for setting
absorptive, semi-vitreous and vitreous
ceramic tile for service in residential and
commercial use for both floor and wall
installations. It is used in a mortar bed from
3/32" to 3/16" (2.4 to 5 mm) after the tiles
have been properly embedded. THINSET 911
has excellent water and impact resistance, is
water cleanable, non-flammable, good for
exterior work and requires no soaking of
tiles. THINSET 911 mortar is not affected by
prolonged contact with water, but does not
form a waterproof barrier. THINSET 911
provides a permanent installation with
higher bond strength, however, requires lower
material and labor costs than conventional
Portland cement mortar beds.
AREAS OF USE
Suitable backings, when properly prepared,
include plumb and true masonry, concrete,
gypsum board (dry interior walls only),
cementitious backer units, cured Portland
cement mortar beds, brick, ceramic tile
and marble.

Will this be adequate?

Also, you mentioned an "additive". Is there something else I should get to add to this stuff, or is it good right out of the bag?

Randy

I'm not familiar with that brand.

Under the mixing directions it should give you the recommended amount of either water or acrylic admixture.

If it says to only use water, then the additives are in a powdered state and become activated by moisture.

I'm not a fan of the water mixed products.

IMO, Mapei Kerabond/Keralastic system is the absolute top of the line product. I've been using Hydroment lately, however.

I offer the lifetime guarantee on my work, though. ;)


KT

The M-Bond Pro calls for just water

The "brown wrapper" Thinset Mortar 911 says that water is acceptable, but suggests a product called CureCryllic Premium. The stated mixing rate is "approximately 1.5 gals/50 Lb bag.

PRODUCT DESCRIPTION
CURECRYLIC® 939 Premium Admixture is an
acrylic latex emulsion that has been
specifically formulated for addition to C-Cure
dry-set mortars to provide a bond coat for all
types of tile over a variety of substrates
including exterior grade plywood (EGP).
CURECRYLIC PREMIUM 939 will provide improved
bond strengths, freeze-thaw stability and
increased flexural strength over normal
dry-set mortars.
BASIC USE
CURECRYLIC PREMIUM 939 is primarily used as a
dry-set mortar additive in lieu of water to
produce a bond coat for setting absorptive,
semi-vitreous, vitreous and impervious tiles
for service in residential and commercial use.
It is suitable for interior and exterior use in
a mortar bed as thin as 3/32" to 3/16"
(2.4 to 5 mm) after tiles have been properly
embedded. CURECRYLIC PREMIUM 939 modified
dry-sets have excellent impact resistance, are
water cleanable, non-flammable, and greatly
reduce water absorption which weakens
normal bonding material when subjected to
freezing conditions. CURECRYLIC PREMIUM 939
modified dry set mortars are not affected by
prolonged contact with water after curing but
do not form a waterproof barrier.

Randy

Soooooo? How's it going?

Are you done yet? :D


KT

HAH! Not even close to being close...

All I've done since the last post was to lay out as many full pieces of backer board as i could. No cutting of it yet.

Once I had all the pieces laid out, I traced them onto the floor, as I removed them, one by one. I now have my pattern laid out and know how the full pieces will fit as I'm setting them in place.

Unfortunately, I probably won't get to actually putting them in place until Sunday. :(

Randy

Well, after being pulled away from this job to work on other things, I was finally able to get a little work accomplished this past weekend. I now have a big chunk of the backerboard laid into place. Also had to disassemble the bathroom sink and toilet and remove the closet flange. I'll install thet back once the tile is in plcae so I can get it installed sugly against the tile.

A few days after laying some of the backerboard, I was walking gingerly acrossed it and noticed a little gritty feeling underneath it in a couple of small areas. It seems as though the thinset underneath it is broken up a little bit and not providing much (if any) adhesion in these areas.

There are 2 or 3 areas about a foot in diameter that are like this. I wouldn't be worried about them if they were located underneath where the couch or the refrigerator are going to be, but these are right in the middle of the pathway leading to the garage door.

Should I pull these pieces of backerboard up and reset them (or new pieces), or can I just disregard them. My thoughts are that the gritting will just get worse, but I'm always open to new isdeas.

Randy

You could drill some small, maybe 1/8-1/4" or less, holes in each area you think are problems, and use a 10-20cc syringe to shoot some thinset into the space. That's what I'd do. You want a "slip-tip" style syringe.

Hmmmm, not a bad idea, Pat. Definitely worth considering.

I did some searching around on the John Bridge forum and there seems to be a consensus that the thinset isn't there to actually adhere the backerboard to the plywood, but rather to simply fill in the gaps and remove air pockets.

A few of the regulars there actually suggested setting a few more nails in the "gritty" areas, since the job of the jails (or screws) is to actually do the fastening of the backerboard.

Injecting some thinset would probably fill in the pockets, but perhaps fastening the floor a little more just might do the trick.

Gonna have to ponder this a bit.

Randy

I'm actually surprised you have any give in the backerboard, particularly with the flood of fasteners used. Get some screws and go to town.

I wouldn't say the backerboard actually has any "give". I mean, there are 54 screws in each full sheet, so they're definitely fastened down.

It's actually the gritty "sound" that bothers me. I can certainly run a lot more screws into it, that's no problem at all with the gun. Would only take a matter of seconds. But I'm afraid the "gritty-ness" will still be there.

Bottom line is, if it has to come up, I'd rather do it now, rather than once it's covered with slate and grout. :(

Randy

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1170303234.jpg

That "gritty" sound is going to persist after you install the tile. Was there anything on the wood subfloor there that might have fought the thinset? Perhaps there was a dip in the floor there and the CBU did not fully seat into the thinset? The problem with the drill/syringe fix is that you might end up with a high spot in your floor if you're not careful.

I'd hate to call it good and install tile only to develop flex later - but I can't picture that with a screw down job over mortar...

88 nails per sheet...( 3x5 )

Sounds like you are not using a 1/4 x 1/4 notched trowel or your thinset is too stiff.

Are you sure you are not hearing the subfloor moving?


KT

88 nails per sheet. I just went back and looked cuz I know you posted a number earlier...and wouldn't ya just know it...that's exactly what you said a couple of weeks ago! :D The question now is this: Any problem with hitting the sheets I've got laid down with more nails?

For the trowel, it is indeed a 1/4 x 1/4 notched trowel. It's the same one I used on a previous, but much smaller tile job.

When you say the thinset may be too "stiff", do you mean it's already begun to set up, or that it was mixed to thick?

I really don't think it was the latter. In fact, following the directions on the bag, it called for 2 gals of water for a 50# bag. After mixing it with my drill moter and mixing bit, the stuff actually seemed thin. It wasn't as thick as creamy peanut butter or a Wendy's Frosty, as I've heard recommended. :D

I let it stand for a good 15 minutes to set up and then mixed it again. It still seemed somewhat thin. Thin enough to where I ended up scooping the stuff out with a plastic bowl because the trowel didn't seem to hold very much of it.

Finally, I am pretty sure it's not the subfloor moving that I'm hearing, but if it is, would more nails in this area resolve this?

Randy

For backer I like the thinset to be a pourable consistancy.

"You can't over-nail a subfloor"...


Nail the area in question.

KT

Also, any possibilty you are sinking the nails too deep? do you have the regulator on the compressor at around 115 PSI?.

I prefer to "chase" the high nails after each sheet is in, rather than setting a ridiculous number of hand nails.

Over-nail the corners. Sink a hand nail in the intersections.


KT

"Pourable"....that sounds about right. It wasn't really watery, but it wasn't really thick, either. "Pourable" describes it pretty well.

I'll hit it with some more nails then. ALL the boards.

Thanks!!!

Randy

Nahh, the regulator was set to 90 psi. After reading your earlier posts on nailing, I figured I would rather follow behind with a hammer and sink whatever ones didn't seat, rather than double or triple nailing the "over-sunk" nails.

Great idea, btw, hand nailing the intersections. I'll do that too. :D

Randy

You know, we are going to need some pictures along the way here? :D


KT

Yeah, and an audio recording of the "gritty sound" would help as well.:cool:

Did you vacum and/or sweap the floor b4 going in with the thinset? Maybe that area had some dust you missed and the mortor didn't grab? Pictures are mandatory now...:)