Always read before posting... ;)


That's true. But go a step further. Those same elements are also found in soil, dirt, or the "dust" if you will.

Everything is made of the same "stuff". It doesn't mean they are the same "finished" product though.



KT

You can't argue in one post that they really *do* chew their cud and then when it is shown that they really don't, dismiss it by saying they "meant something different back then".

The bigger question is, "why is eating rabbit forbidden by god"? Rabbit stew is a no-no?

Mike

I found trekkor's explanation to be perfectly reasonable.

At one time for a chosen group of people. Why? I don't know. This does not apply - not even a little bit - to Christians.

correct.


KT

'Scuse me while I take exception to each of your points:

Eternal damnation is a function of the Bible. It isn't a threat, it is the just wages of the sin of man. God provided a bridge to escape that damnation even after man turned his back on God and sinned. Prayers for intervention are just that, prayers. They do not harness anything, any more than a child asking a parent to borrow the car forces the parent to comply. Hence your statement is still fundamentally incorrect.


Not sure which Christianity you are referring to, but it ain't mine. Man does not spend anything "regaining" paradise. Heaven is attainable only through the intervention of Jesus Christ. The idea of earning your way into heaven is fallacious, says so right in the Bible. Second, "destroying" nature is not destroying God. The Bible says that God gave man dominion over the earth and everything in it. That is not to say that we should not be good stewards of our planet, but your suggestion that each time an animal or plant dies we somehow kill God is simply incorrect.


Um, no. I am a physician and we do not transplant pig hearts into humans. Now, we DO use valves from porcine hearts to replace human valves, however since valves are avascular there is minimal opporutnity for rejection of that tissue...no more than you would reject a piece of plastic or titanium that was implanted to replace your knee. There were a few attempts at baboon heart transplantation, however they were short lived and ended in rejection of the organ.

- Perhaps you are missing the point of the thread. This entire thread is about the idea that evolution might be God's method of creation. Therefore these simplistic arguments about retarded midgets and chimps aren't germane. What is it with you and bathroom humor? First giant testicles and now retarded hairy midgets?

- And again, I'm not sure where you are saying that anyone thinks they can speak "for" God. The only example I can think of would be the Catholic Pope, and even he does not claim to speak FOR God.

It sounds like you have some preconceptions based on incorrect information about Christianity. Perhaps if you studied it a bit more you might find it more reasonable than you think.

The whole Noah’s ark story has been entirely discredited. There is no evidence of the flood and the ark has never been found. It is ridiculous to think that you could possibly get two of every animal, plus enough food and water for them, on a ship. If the ark were built of wood according to the dimensions given in the bible, it would fall apart under it’s own weight. I could go on and on.

Perhaps the ark story is a metaphor for something else, but as it stands literally, it has been proven false.

I thought the found something perported to be the Ark in Russia some years back.

Every so often someone makes that claim, but they have always been proven false.

Your comments are simple disagreements.

"Providing proof, need you will"- Yoda


KT :D

So the Ten Commandments don't apply either? They're in the same book and were directed at the same people.

Mike

The principles of "the law" still apply. Not the letter of.


KT

I wonder then. If Evolution threw natural selection is in fact God´s invention and His most excellent creation (man) has started a research called science in order to find out how this world is assembled. Digging deeper and deeper. What will we eventually find out?

Straying toward Hawkins here. It seems the most minuscule entities so far postulated are not particles but some kind of non definable strings. Will we, hence, finally find the essence of God as scientists?

Tired and silly here but, maybe this is all a game. The million year game plan by God, for his entertainment. His final creation is intelligent enough to start a scientific search for its origin (Him). We are getting close and we do not even know it. As soon as we reach the answer and realize the full effect of it - GAME OVER. A new devastating ice age, mega meteor or nuclear world war. Then He resets the game..

Hey, I have a plot for a best seller here! ;)

Eccl. 3:10-13

10_I have seen the occupation that God has given to the sons of mankind in which to be occupied. 11_Everything he has made pretty in its time. Even time indefinite he has put in their heart, that mankind may never find out the work that the [true] God has made from the start to the finish. 12_I have come to know that there is nothing better for them than to rejoice and to do good during one’s life; 13_and also that every man should eat and indeed drink and see good for all his hard work. It is the gift of God.



KT

You might not agree or believe, but I figured you knew about these things.

No, the Ten Commandments are pretty much universal. Some think the Sabbath needs to be observed, others do not..

The Old Testament laws relating to diet and other things are between God and the Jews. Some Jews still adhere to these laws, while others do not.

gaijindabe- Correct!

And, when Jesus came, the "rules" changed - as He stated.

This is Christianity 101.

- Skip

AFAIK- nobody today actually observes the law.

Example: must keep and obey sabbath. Penalty- death.

So, who kills the sabbath breakers today?
And those animal sacrafices and burnt offerings?

Hundreds of other examples could be given.

People that claim to live under the Mosaic Law, actually don't and never have.


KT

What do you know. And then maybe, just maybe, it turns out the Holly book is in fact a cryptic key to the game plan that used in conjunction with science will lead us to Him.

Ergo: Darwin and Christ are two models of the same game. Both is vital to reach the end.

you said

Originally posted by trekkor

Nothing in the Bible has been proven to be false.

KT

your statement is proven false over and over
the FACT that your willnot accept the truth
doesnot make any difference
you cannot handwave away the truth
and you are not yoda

there was NO FLOOD or ark

Actually, a simple study of the Bible leads to a fairly broad understanding of "things". Past, present and future...


KT

No hand waves?....Blast!!


KT

Say what? I don’t understand.

I provided some evidence that the whole ark story has been disproven, and you call them disagreements? What a way to dodge the issue!

How in your mind do you think the whole ark story actually happened? Can you tell me how they possibly got two of every animal, plus food and water, on that ship? Can you tell me how that wooden ark didn’t fall apart under its own weight?

I think we are closing in on a Nobel Prize here.

On a side note: If God is everywhere - I wonder how he finds the new 997 Turbo. ;)

There is no evidence of a flood?

Bro, entire continents were at one time underwater. What's more, most civilizatins speak to a flood of Noah proportions in their past. Coincidence? Maybe....

There is a massive biblical flood everytime there's a thaw from an ice-age, but i bet you knew that. ;)

And one can hardly be surprised that one has not found a wooden ship thousands and thousands of years old anywhere on this earth since we dont really know specifically where to look for it. We DO find new shipwrecks everyday though. Maybe tommorow we'll find your ark....if it exists. ;)

I wasn't there.

But, I will tell you this:

1) They spent 40 years on the project.

2) the modern, large ocean going ships use a width to length ratio similar to that of the ark. I wonder how they knew that would be the best?



KT

I don't know that there is much left of any wood that is pushing 6,000 years old...Ark or otherwise.


KT

I wonder how many ships, lost within the past 100 years, which have not been found.

local floods sure
black sea flood yes
stories of flood sure

post iceage changes in sea level sure
land areas sinking and rasing check

BUT NO WORLD WIDE FLOOD ever at any date
let alone the bible noah flood date
[he Biblical data places the Flood at 2304 BC +/- 11 years.]
but no flood layer at that or and other dates for a world wide mountian topping flood
no mountian topping flood ever
in fact where could that much water come from and go to after the fact?

Didn't we all used to think the world was flat ;)

Because they spent 40 years on it, and the width to length ratio is “similar” to large ocean going ships, the story is true? That’s pretty weak, dude.

On what large ocean going ship can they put two of every animal?

How could they possibly wander the globe and get two of every animal? They went to Antarctica and got two penguins and they went the arctic and got two polar bears and they went to Africa and got two hippos, etc, etc?

And it is still true that if the arc were built to those specs, out of wood, it would fall apart under its own weight. You have yet to address this fact.

Read this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah's_Ark

Here’s a quote:
The ark story has been discreditied since “the beginning of the 18th century,” but just like evolution, the only people that believe the Ark story to be real are “biblical literalists.”

There is plenty of petrified wook much older than 6,000 years.

Why is it OK that the ark is missing, but it is not OK that a small number of species on the evolutionary tree are missing?

A brief tangent...

There are many different flavors of Christianity, a spectrum really. Some chose to emphesize one thing (Baptists the Spirit, Methodists -- Good Works, Catholics the Body and Blood, and so on) over another.

Some people believe that the "Day" described in Genesis is strictly a modern day of 24 hours. I've mentioned this elsewhere on this BBS, but the Hebrew word for "day" used in Genesis does map very well onto the English word "day", and was generally used in the same way, such as...

It took me a DAY to do that... (24 hours or alternatively a workday)
What DAY is it? (Friday)
At the end of the DAY... (sunset, or the end of daylight or a workday)
Back in my DAY... (an indetermined period of time)

As far as interpretting the Bible, there are also those (The Amish, Menninites, etc) who believe that God wants us to live in a simple, "old fashioned" way, which to them seems to arbitrarily mean in the style of a 19th Century agrarian society, as opposed to say...
- A simple Roman style society such as when Jesus lived
- A simple Bronze aged society such as during the time of Jewish Kingdom

Does this mean that they are going to rot in hell? I don't know. But if Christians practice their particular faith sincerly, I'm pretty sure that God will give them credit for it. Jesus even taught that it was the good Sameritan (a Judaic offshoot, considered by many Jews to be heritical) who was doing God's work when he helped the traveller who had been mugged. He also made the clear point that God's will was not done by the "holy" Levite or the High Priest who were both too occupied with themselves and their perceived position as inate "friends of God" to help the person in need.

So I guess the application of this famous parable is that none of us is going to be doing God's will and get to heaven just by being a member of the Hebrew/Catholic/Baptist/Methodist/Mennonite/Lutheran/etc. group, but rather by what we do and how we act to others, especially those in need.

The only thing we know is that at one point or another virtually every single square inch of the world was under water. Whether it was ever all under water at once or not, i have no idea. But then, to a guy building an Ark in turkey(or where-ever else), a "local" flood that wiped out "only" his continent would seem very world wide indeed.

You're probably right, there was probably no ark, but in my opinion there is no definitive evidence it didn't happen either.

Were i a myth-buster, i'd call this story "plausible, but entirely unproven." ;)

Because there are tens of thousands(well, at least many thousands) of sunken ships in recorded times that are still missing, even though we know approxomately where they were lost from ancient records.

As far as the evolutionary tree, if said tree leads back to abiogenesis, IMO, the entire tree is a fraud. ;)

Good point.

Maybe the flood wiped out the entire "inhabited by man" world. Or, known world.

Regardless, my faith does not rest on one piece of information... like what rabbits eat or an un-found biodegradable ship.

I don't blame people for being skeptical. I used to think/question many of the same things as some on this thread/board. Heck, I also used to think people like me were a little wacky.

- Skip

Flood stories populate many religions and ancient societies. I believe that they did find evidence of a large flood in Mesopotamia sometime around 2000 BC. I would doubt that there was a world wide flood, however at the time the known world was pretty small. Therefore a flood that involved much of the middle east would certainly kill thousands if not millions and would put much of the wildlife in the area in jeopardy.

I think the problem you guys are having is you are trying to argue literal Bible references with people who are non-literalists. Barking up the wrong tree, so to speak.

Agreed. Arguing minor points of biblical errancy is a waste of time. It is the "big picture" story of Christianity itself that ruined my "faith"...

Mike

Im not a xtian either, or even religious. I believe in a god, but am smart enough to know that im not smart enough to know his purpose, intent, or nature.

So i leave it at that. ;)

Christians don't think they know God's purpose either...

Man, who have you guys been hanging out with?

any flood in Mesopotamia would be imposable to result in putting a ark on top of mt ararat or any other mountian

now for a major local flood the black sea flood is closer but that never got near to the base of mt ararat let alone the top and was 8000 years before the bible date