Raising minimum wage...how is this supposed to help?

[fintstone]

Originally posted by Superman

quote:
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Originally posted by fintstone
Please explain what someone's income of "MORE THAN A THOUSAND DOLLARS A MONTH" has to do with my understanding of economics. It appears from this statement that you are the one who fails to grasp even the most basic economic principles.
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I didn't get much sleep last night and still, this strikes me as quite amusing. If you want to see it, go find an economist....any economist....and tell them one of the posters on an Internet board fails to grasp even the most basic economic principles, like the inflation caused by a hike in the minimum wage. He'll show you the laugh.

Perhaps it is just your butchering of the language that causes me not to understand your point...as I imagine my MBA included as much economics as yours did. Perhaps you should try explaining your point (instead of silly hyperbole)...if you have one. How you came up with the remark you did based on my post is simply amazing. Instead of directing me to "find an economist" and ask them to make your point for you (whatever that is)...how about you attempt to make your own point?

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Superman
Pat, if you want to prove that prices are effected by sunspots, that's easy. Probably don't even need an economist for that.

Quite frankly, capitalism causes unemployment. It is a settled fact of economics (hehehe) that capitalism requires a certain amount of unemployment. Without that, there would be no available labor market. In that case, you would see rapid wage inflation. Economists are unanimous on this one. (hehehehe)

Translation - He can't support the minimum wage with science so resorts to fiction to support it. That's all the MW has ever had.

[snowman]

superman, Your t he ONLY person on this forum that is more nuts than Pat. Pat is correct on most of his posts on the min wage, you are totally wacko.

[fintstone]

Here is an excellent article on the topic:

Welcome Back to Democratland
By Mona Charen
Friday, January 19, 2007

Some of you are probably rusty. Others are too young to recall what life was like in Democratland before 1995. Now, with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's majority well into its vaunted "100 hours," you are getting a refresher course. Call it the American Idyll.

It is a world in which facts always bow to feelings. What matters is not so much that you do good, but that you feel virtuous, or perhaps more to the point, are seen to be virtuous.

Consider the increase in the minimum wage Congress passed by a vote of 315-116 (more than 80 Republicans joined all of the Democrats in voting aye). The speeches were heartwarming. "With the passage of this crucial legislation, we will reward work, paying America's workers a decent wage so they may join in our nation's prosperity," declared Speaker Pelosi. Majority Leader Steny Hoyer chimed in that "You should not be relegated to poverty if you work hard and play by the rules." Rep. Bill Pascrell proclaimed that "The little guy is not going to be forgotten any longer."

Sounds great. The Democrats are back in power, and now the deserving working poor are finally going to be paid a living wage.

Except that it isn't true.

Fewer than one in five minimum wage workers lives in a family with income below the poverty line. Despite the picture painted by the Democrats in Washington, more than 82 percent of minimum wage workers have no dependents, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS). Minimum wage workers tend to be young (under 25) and single (often they are students working part time), and a full 40 percent come from homes with an annual income of $60,000 and higher. Never-married workers are more likely than married workers to be paid minimum wage.

One of the Democrats who extolled an increase in the minimum wage reminded listeners that these workers "had not gotten a raise in 12 years." Well, that's misleading. It makes it seem that hundreds of thousands of workers have been toiling away at $5.15 an hour for more than a decade. Not so. Again, the BLS reports that 63 percent of minimum wage workers receive a raise after the first year of employment. Only 15 percent are still receiving the lowest wage after three years on the job.

The BLS also found that part-time workers are far more likely to be paid minimum wage than full-time employees. Only 1.2 percent of full-time, year-round employees earned $5.15 an hour or less in 2005.

The Democrats' claim to be fighting poverty by raising the minimum wage is way off target. Among the poor, the problem is not so much one of low wages as of non-work -- call it the American Idle. The Census Bureau finds that 63.2 percent of individuals aged 16 or above living in poverty did not work at all in the year preceding the survey. Raising the minimum wage obviously does nothing for those who aren't working.

As for those who are, their prospects for employment may be narrowed by a rise in the minimum wage. Employers forced to choose between raising a marginal employee's salary and firing him or her may well choose the latter. Or the employer may reduce the number of entry-level positions available. This doesn't particularly hurt the college kid who is looking for extra pocket money, but it does hurt the unskilled worker looking to climb onto the lowest rung of the economic ladder.

So what should a well-intentioned politician do if he wants to improve the lot of the poor in America? Well, here's one thought: Encourage charities to give used cars to the poor. According to a survey noted by the National Center for Policy Analysis, having a car and some work experience increased the chances that a poor person would be self-sufficient by 94 percent. There are other intriguing ideas there as well -- far more exciting and potentially successful than the hoary old minimum wage hike.

[Moneyguy1]

Mona Charen

author:

"Do-Gooders: How Liberals Hurt Those They Claim to Help"

"Useful Idiots: How Liberals got it wrong in the Cold War and Still Blame America First"

Posted without comment.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
Mona Charen

author:

"Do-Gooders: How Liberals Hurt Those They Claim to Help"

"Useful Idiots: How Liberals got it wrong in the Cold War and Still Blame America First"

Posted without comment.

You'll notice that I never use Mona as a reference. There's a reason for that.

[Racerbvd]

I'll say it yet again, if you think someone should be paid more they are worth, start a business and pay them, if you aren't willing to do that, STFU!!!

[fintstone]

Originally posted by fastpat
You'll notice that I never use Mona as a reference. There's a reason for that.

Yes, she uses multi-syllable words.

[Moneyguy1]

And rather poorly at times......

[Superman]

You guys still arguing about this?

FYI, as a gubmit regulator, I used to gauge my overall effectiveness by the volume, and source of hate mail. That still works. It looks like the folks that disagree with me are, for example, Snowjob, Fastpaste and Fint. It's a litmus test. No indication of a need for change in my beliefs around economics.

My point, Fint, was explained. Adequately. The sky will, most likely, not fall. Contrary to the rather wild predictions I see regurgitated here. And if economists were united, or even generally opposed, to MW and/or its increases, we would be seeing it so broadly supported. The federal gubmit and most states are wrong and have been reaching wrong decisions together for seventy years? Think about that.

I know that investment firms employ economists, but I'd guess that most economists are either professors or they work for the gubmit. I've heard of conservative economists, but have not met one personally. There's Keynes of course, but he stands in Galbraith's shadow.

I still think it very curious, you guys' apparent preference for social programs at the taxpayers' cost, rather than employers picking up the bill. Seems odd but okay. And again, it's clear that we agree markets must be regulated. You know, environmental - aintitrust - etc. Interesting that you pretend to believe the employment relationship and the various games that can be played by both parties should not be regulated. Except to outlaw labor unions. That's a position you will find very few economists supporting.

[Moneyguy1]

Supe:

In your experience....Would you say that any action on the minimum wage is politically motivated and relatively irrelevant to the overall economy?

[Superman]

Good question, Bob. First, I'd say this particular MW increase is almost meaningless. Except as political fodder. The Cons left the door wide open for that. They are indeed the Part of Business, in sharp contrast with the marketing confusion they sometimes achieve.

Ordinarily, in times when the MW has not been previously allowed to fall so disgustingly far below the subsistence level, its impact is greater. But still, it's impact on general economic indicators is mimimal. This "sky will fall" crap is patently dismissable, offhand. But it does make a difference in the view from the street. Workers who are in that part of the market that might be affected by this change......their perspective is quite different from ours. My company, an international engineering and project management firm, is thinking about its position in the professional salary market and the implications on our ability to attract and retain the talent we will be increasingly needing. Same goes on a more macro level. The difference between the federal $5.25 MW and Washington State's $7.93, is that while both earnings potentially allow survival (eating, and living indoors), the higher wage carries the potential for an automobile. That's incentive.

Capitalism requires some perceptual things. The loser on the street corner must have some belief that maybe, perhaps, he or she could reach the brass ring. Opportunity. If it is a truly hollow promise, things will start to come unglued.

Interestingly, the same goes for the guy in the Porsche driving by the loser. He's got to think "there but for the grace of my employer, go I." Otherwise, he could not be made to dance and sing at the pleasure of the employer.

Fear and money. Capitalism is Machiavelli's economic system. I personally do not think those are the only two motivators or even the best two, but our economic system is a gamble that they are the only relevant ones.

[Moneyguy1]

Thanks.

George Carlin speaks of the American caste society:

The rich have all the money

The middle class does all the work

The poor are there to scare the middle class

It appears there is a scintilla of truth there.

[Dottore]

Originally posted by Moneyguy1

George Carlin speaks of the American caste society:

The rich have all the money

The middle class does all the work

The poor are there to scare the middle class

Brilliant! Nice way to end this thread.

[snowman]

On a false premise.

The world is lead by a bunch of min wage "losers", ie people that contribite little and whose ideas are worthless.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Superman
Ordinarily, in times when the MW has not been previously allowed to fall so disgustingly far below the subsistence level, its impact is greater.

Subsistence level? Now THAT is absurd.

[widebody911]

Originally posted by snowman
The world is lead by a bunch of min wage "losers", ie people that contribite little and whose ideas are worthless.

But we compassionate, understanding, liberals let you in anyway

[Moneyguy1]

And how, pray tell, do these min wage losers wield such power?

Rational minds want to know.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
And how, pray tell, do these min wage losers wield such power?

Rational minds want to know.

They don't, people who take power from "helping them", i.e. running the programs, wield tremendous power.

[snowman]

Pat is correct, it is their KEEPERS that yield their power for them and of course that of the keepers.

Tell me about their contributions, to anything, compared to the rich. The rich make all of us better off, thats exactly why they are rich. Punish the rich, you punish all of us. Reward the poor, you drag all of us down to their level.

The USSR was absolute proof of these facts. Add to that corruption that is necessary for that form of govt to survive and humanity is worse off, not better off for it.