Raising minimum wage...how is this supposed to help?
 

So what's the first order of business for our newly elected socialist nee democrat congress? Raising the minimum wage by almost 50%. How is this supposed to help anyone? Do democrats honestly think that McDonalds and Tyson foods will say "Oh, jeez, out of the goodness of our hearts, lets give up our profits and fat executive pay so we can pay these increased wages"?

Firstly, corporations will have increased incentives to replace people with computers or automation. Why do you need someone taking your order at Mickey Ds? Introduce touch screen ordering systems. Already done for airport check-in! High wages encourage investment in labor saving devices...history has proven this. More factories will close shop and move overseas. Prices of goods and services will rise, further feeding inflation.

Labor should be priced at its true market value...trying to regulate this just causes problems.

Can anyone think of any advantages of increasing the minimum wage other than fulfilling some feel-good campaign promises? Should we require all congress members to take a class in economics?

But the goodwill will buy votes.

The advantage is to make other people feel better that a tiny fraction of 1% of the lowest rank of unskilled workers will get a pay raise, most of which will be eaten by payroll taxes right away and maybe inflation a little later.

When I was 16, I made $3.35 an hour flipping burgers at Wendy's in 1987. They forgot to hire more people before all the kids went back to school in late August. So as soon as all the kids left, they offered $7.00 an hour. So, since I went to a private school that started in Sept., I got that pay raise. BUT, that Wendy's was by far the most expensive fast food place in our town and even with my 50% employee discount, it was cheaper for me to pay full price atthe BK across the street, which many of us did on our breaks.

Re: Raising minimum wage...how is this supposed to help?
 

Ironically, if you did away with illegal immigration the market would price unskilled labour much higher.

Re: Re: Raising minimum wage...how is this supposed to help?
 

True.

The Democratic approach is to flood the market with black market labor while enforcing price controls on white market labor.

The Republican approach apparently is to limit illegal access to the labor market, and let the market set prices (presumably higher).

Re: Re: Re: Raising minimum wage...how is this supposed to help?
 

I'm not so sure that these are so neatly divided along party lines. I'm sure there are a lot of Republican benefactors of illegal labor.

Thom, you are absolutely correct. I'm speaking in broad generalities.

I'm not going to go into the economic stuff. If you guys don't get that part, then the light is not going to "come on" just because you read a post by Superman. Suffice it to say that all this "the sky will fall because of price inflation" crap is just that. Crap. In my industry, construction, direct labor costs account for about 20% of the cost of a project. If you could save 10% on labor costs, it would reduce the cost of the project by 2%. And that assumes that you will get just as much talent at a 10% discount as you can paying full price. Yeah, right. So, go ahead and discuss all this runaway inflation you expect. It helps us evaluate your understanding of economics.

What I will point out is that I find it curious that the same folks who say they are concerned about costs to the taxpayer.....are the same ones who think a $5.25 minimum wage is good public policy. For your consideration, a full time minimum wage worker earns about nine hundred dollars a month. Also, as we have discussed her ad nauseum, the typical minimum wage worker is not a high school kid. It is an adult, many of whom are heads of households. So what do you think the cost to the taxpayer is when a working mom makes $900 per month, with no health insurance. She's also getting food stamps and very likely housing assistance. Or she's working three of these jobs to make ends meet, and nobody is at home to raise her kids. Sound good?

But......that's all pretty complicated. Perhaps you guys should just return to your mantra. "Free market." "Free market." "free market."

Funny thing, though. Even you guys agree with regulations. Regulating industries. If you need to be reminded of examples, just let me know. So....."free market" is not really honest, now is it? The Greeks had Mount Olympus and the Gods. The Middle Ages had the Earth as the center of the Universe. Today we have the "self-regulating markets."

Re: Re: Re: Raising minimum wage...how is this supposed to help?
 

This is hilariously funny. Apparently, you don't know what's going on with this issue. You haven't noticed that illegal immigration is a problem the Republicans cannot possibly afford to stop. Fence? Did that look like a solution to you? Wow, we're back in fantasyland where Republicans are about freedom and Democrats are about control. Holy ****!

And this was a civil conversation for the first 7 posts. "Milking the man dry" doesn't benefit anyone.

Mere gesture on the part of the Dems, buying votes. Many states have laws placing minimum wage above the federal level.
More smoke and mirrors. Common when the Democrat party rules.

I 'm sorry Legion. I really don't mean to insult you. It's just that I've been doing this for so long. By "this," I mean dealing in public policy decision regarding workers and wages. I've made plenty of speeches. Lots and lots of hecklers. For the last few years of that, I really really wanted a heckler at each event. They made it fun. Now, I am a consultant. But I'm still available to discuss these things. Lots of mythology and emotional assumptions. The economics are actually fairly straightforward, but they conflict with the emotional beliefs.

I like free markets as much as anyone else. But the brute fact is that workers do not have the clout. Employers do. And wages can and do get pushed to the lowest possible, even artificial, level. While you and I pick up the tab that the employer is not paying. You pay for the real cost of that hamburger anyway. Either directly to the employer who pays all of the worker's necessary expenses......or to the gubmit for programs that handle that for the employer. You see, I just thought you guys were interested in avoiding the gubmit programs.

Yes, most states have gone past, and sometimes way past, the federal min wage. It's not current grandstanding that is happening. It is past inaction on the part of the feds.

"Raising minimum wage...how is this supposed to help?"

Most of my customers would get a raise, sounds like more money for Jim

Re: Raising minimum wage...how is this supposed to help?
 

My solution is a 50 year moratorium on Congress passing any new law without a 75% majority. :D

Not exactly, because Jim will pay that much more for every other thing jim buys as business owners everywhere increase prices to compensate for the spike in labor costs.

You know, inflation.

Seems to me that a head of household earning minimum wage has either recently started a new, very low level job or is being paid what they're worth - based on performance and/or the job they're doing.

Min. wage helps the illegal immigrants.

the ones about to cross couldn't be more thrilled.

If you are over 21, raising a family, and still only earning MW, you are an idiot!!

MW is sub-poverty wage. you can't live on it. it's more symbolic than anything.

I love it when people say "You can't raise a family on minimum wage"! Well, no shi_!!! You're not supposed to have a family if you're only earning the minimum wage! Be responsible for providing for your own family and quit looking to the guvment for a handout.... that's what I'd like to say to those idiots...

Art, "family wage" jobs are like musical chairs. when the music stops, several million people are standing with no chair. If there were vacant family-wage jobs out there going unfilled, I would agree with you. As it is, I do not. And quite frankly, the "markets" are not going to provide enough of them for all the folks that need them. Heck, if the "Markets" were faced with a situation where that were true, you'd see a lot of frightened business owners. It would be the end of fast food and convenience stores as we know them. The "economy" would have to be ridiculously and insanely white hot in order for that to happen. Too hot to handle.

+1

If I don't like my paycheck, I (not govt) need to do something about it. How is this simple concept lost on so many?

Life is not always fair. One has to play the cards they are dealt and make the best of it. Maybe some of these "head of household" types should have made better choices when they were younger instead of spitting out a bunch of babies before they were able to properly pay for them.

Sure there are always going to be some examples of true hard luck stories, but the majority of folks flipping burgers for minimum wage are not going to continue to do so for the rest of their lives.

Dude seriously, don't hold back. Tell us what you really think. :D



I don't claim to be as smart as you guys, and I have trouble keeping up with most of the conversations, but this one seems pretty simple.

-Raise minimum wage.
-Prices for all goods go up to compensate.
-Joe schmo makes more but has to spend more so he really didn't get a raise.
-I have to spend more but I didn't get a raise, so I actually got a cut in pay.
-So it doesn't really help anybody, but it hurts many.

:(

Supe, do you mind if I PM you?

Wow, I must be seeing things...

Since 1973 there have been multiple minimum wage increases, the minimum wage in 1973 was $2 an hour. The poverty rate was 11%.
Ten minimum wage increases later the minimum wage is now $5.15 and the poverty rate is.....12%.

Never mind, THIS time it will work...I swear.

I just have a problem with the gubmint setting prices on anything. When will they start capping what we can sell cars and houses for?

To those in favor of 'market forces' (ie plantation owners) - any rough idea of where would the "minimum wage" be if it were not mandated by state/federal law?

Seems like minimum wage earners will just get a little more spending money. Probably a wash in terms of stimulating economy, adding a bit in tax revenue, and increasing business expense.

Come on, Rick. You forgot to carry the "CEO Golden Parachute" and divide by the "War on Terror" :D

BK911,

We should consider the additional spending money added to the economy when the increase purchases goods and services. It provides addtional income to businesses and their workers and a general boost to the economy. Let's say I make an additional $2 bucks an hour over a 40 hour week, or $80 (less tax). So, I take that money and my girlfriend to a movie and a pizza. Now the movie company is happier, the movie theater is happier, the pizza maker is happier. Multiply that times 5 or 6 million workers.

Now, we can start worrying about inflation.

Because, you've always gotta have something to worry about.

So what's next.....raise minimum wage to $20/hr? I bet that would really jump start the economy? Govt mandating pay scales is just wrong period.

It isn't intended to live on, it is a starting point. You work hard, prove you are worth more money, you get a raise. Pretty simple. Every American, and even non-Americans get a free education, what they choose to do with it, affects how they will live the rest of their lives, there are many college grant programs and skilled trade programs available. I stand by my statement, no one is forcing anyone to stay at a job where they don't get paid as much as they feel they are worth, and no one is keeping anyone from taking a 2nd job or getting a Pell Grand or leaning a trade to better themselves. For the record, our people start at close to double the MW. Why isn't anyone saying anything about how much Pro athletes, actors and other multimillionaire people, just picking on the CEOs who run businesses (true, some do screw up and should be punished) while shock jock Howard Stearn gets am $82.9 million BONUS on top of his $500 million contract!!! One thing that is being missed, the tax cost on the business owner, he has to pay the gubmit a few bucks per buck in this forced seizure of his investment. So in reality, that raise is doubling the money the owner has to pay out, so he will let people go, he will work more and cut others hours, raise prices, that is how he will be able to stay open.

There's talk of the gov't here raising minimum wage as well. One things you guys have neglected to notice is what it does for the # of jobs available. Working from CDN stats, small business accounts for approx. 50% of jobs in Ontario. I can tell you from experience that most small business owners aren't getting filthy rich on the backs of their employees. There's a certain budget for labour, and the economics of that are simple. If there's $100 per opening hour to pay for labour and minimum wage goes up, well, there's not more budget to pay for labour, which means someone loses their job.

This happened to me as a teenager in a *****ty dishwashing job. NDP (left) provincial gov't was elected, raised minimum wage from about $5.50 to about $7, I lost my job. The restaurant didn't have suddenly start making more profits to pay employees a higher wage, so fewer employees got paid more to do more work. Plain and simple. Okay, not the end of the world for me, because it was an evening/weekend job in high school, but it would suck for someone relying on that for a living.

And FTR, I disagree with the statement posted earlier that minimum wage shouldn't be for raising a family. I think that's the exact point of minimum wage, to ensure people can manage their household adequately. It may mean both parents working, and it may not work in extreme cases of something like 8 kids, and of course shouldn't allow for extravagances, but generally, minimum wage should be sufficient to feed, house and clothe a family.

edit: just to clarify, min. wage in Ont. is $7.75/hr, which works out to $15,500/yr based on 40 hrs/wk and 50 wks/yr. That's before tax dollars, but you wouldn't get taxed much at that income level. That's more than enough to live comfortably on. I lived on less than that in university and I had to pay tuition and books (approx. $5k) out of that each year. And I didn't live in poverty. Not even close.

Re: Raising minimum wage...how is this supposed to help?
 

The minimum wage has been debunked as doing anything other than harming those it is supposed to help decades ago, but when pols need to appear to do "something" this is just too easy to fix on. The fact that it is harmful doesn't matter because those it harms don't matter, most don't vote.

No, it won't work like that, as cost of the movie, and the pizza will go up, so people will be less likely to go to a movie, and if the do, it will be the cheap show, they won't be buying popcorn & cokes either, and will more likely rent a movie and make a pizza at home, so the pizzeria owner & movie theater manager won't be happier, while the theater, being a corporate owned, will just pass the cost on, while the pizzeria owner will have to cut someone's hours or fire them and try to pass the increase on, as the best pizza places are family owned without a golden parachute:(

I think the point is, at least according to Superman, if minimum wage is so low as it currently is, they ARE getting a handout...they are living in poverty and qualify for the handout. If it's raised, they won't qualify for government handouts. It'll save all of us money.

Them that have don't understand them that don't.


And visey versey......

I worked 2 jobs to fund my college, it comes down to the decisions you make in life, if you choose to work hard and save you have a better chance at working your way out, if you sit around smoking a carton of cigarettes, drinking a case of old Milwaukee whining that the man don't pay you enough, with 4 kids screaming in the background, while you are playing a PS3, you will never leave. Many have worked there way out.

Why in the world should anyone be guaranteed a min. wage by law? If you can't live on min. wage, then you work harder or smarter to get ahead. If you can't, that's too bad. Life is hard on stupid people. Everyone should have the right to fail.