How fast IS this car?

[pwd72s]

For sale in Portland, Oregon. Asking a mere $165,000...over $250,000 in receipts.
I'm not good at posting pics, but a very nice 1971 Dodge Challenger. The ghost of Vanishing point?
http://www.memorylaneclassiccars.com/71challenger/1971_dodge_hemi_challenger.htm

[stomachmonkey]

Pretty car. Would not pay $165 k or even close for it. And $250 k in receipts sounds like someone pays more thatn they should for things.

[speeder]

I was always under the impression that these cars need to be original/#s matching to be worth the big bucks(?)

Of course maybe an original Hemi Challenger is worth more? At any rate, they were OK-looking cars, build quality was reminiscent of the Soviet-era Yugos.

[pwd72s]

Do I detect a bit of elitism here? I'd think about if if I was offered a nice muscle car for my 1972 911S...and I've got a pretty nice 1972 911S...

[RichMink76]

Nice looking car. He probably has at least 20K just in body work and paint.
If you think about it a stock Porsche motor build is around 10K a 655 HP Hemi must cost double that if not more.
I have never driven a muscle car like that before, I bet it would be a kick.

Rich

[scottmandue]

Originally posted by speeder
I was always under the impression that these cars need to be original/#s matching to be worth the big bucks(?)

I have to agree, the big money on muscle cars is for historical collectible cars not hopped up dragsters.

No elitism here, nice car, looks like it would be fun to drive, just don't think it is worth six figures.

I had a neighbor that used to buy up mid sixties Chevy low riders and convert them back to original condition then sell them for a profit.

[MRM]

I certainly hope you detect a lot of elitism. I drive a Porsche for a reason.

[HardDrive]

Way over priced. 80k max.

[HardDrive]

What was the point in all the custom work? He could have achieved the same goal using many off the shelf parts.

[pwd72s]

Denis, you're right...an original hemi challanger in this type condition? 7 figures...not low 6. MRM? I have a Porsche for a reason too. I wanted it when I bought it in 1974, and I guess I still want it because I still have it. But I'm not so elite that I'd consider it to be the only desirable marque out there. There are other cars I'd rather have....oldies but goodies. And yes, I'm crazy...I'd prefer something like this Challanger to a new GT3.
You can take the boy out of Hot Rods, but you can't take the Hot Rodder out of the boy.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally posted by HardDrive
Way over priced. 80k max.

I'm thinking more like half that. I was very much into old MOPARs before the Porsche bug bit. '66 Sport Fury, '67 R/T, '68 Road Runner, and finally a '69 Super Bee. Still hit most of the local MOPAR club shows, as one of my cousins is still into them. The crate Hemi cars, no matter how nice, just are not worth all that much. Granted, this one looks exceptional, but there are more of these out there than you might think.

Yes, these cars an an absolute hoot to drive. Original build quality has nothing to do with it anymore, in these or in our Porsches for that matter. Once any car has been gone through to this degree it is what the fabricator made of it, not Dodge or Porsche.

With the right parts, properly sorted, I would put this car up against any GT3 on an open enough track. It looks like it might be an aluminum Hemi (most are these days), and with other weight saving measures, it could very well be under 3,000 pounds. The live rear axle won't help, but unequal length a-arms and torsion bars on the fron work pretty good. Throw a set of decent brakes under it, and you have one hell of a capable car.

[Seahawk]

Odd that I had no interest in muscle cars as a teenager in the '70's, but I'd love to give it a go, Barry Newman-like.

Own it? Nope.

Drive it? Keys, please.

[Schrup]

My dad was a big Mopar buff & had a couple of fast ones. In my experience of riding with him, these car lose most of their steering after about 130mph due to the poor aerodynamics.

[VINMAN]

Originally posted by RichMink76
Nice looking car. He probably has at least 20K just in body work and paint.
If you think about it a stock Porsche motor build is around 10K a 655 HP Hemi must cost double that if not more.
I have never driven a muscle car like that before, I bet it would be a kick.

Rich

That motor was probably somewhere about $10-12,000. Big HP V-8s can be built for alot less than you think. Depending on the parts and builder.

PWD, I agree big time, I'd take a 60's 70's American Muscle car over just about any P-car in a second.

[scottmandue]

Originally posted by Jeff Higgins

With the right parts, properly sorted, I would put this car up against any GT3 on an open enough track. It looks like it might be an aluminum Hemi (most are these days), and with other weight saving measures, it could very well be under 3,000 pounds. The live rear axle won't help, but unequal length a-arms and torsion bars on the fron work pretty good. Throw a set of decent brakes under it, and you have one hell of a capable car.

Really? Dunno I would think thirty five years of suspension technology would be good for something. Tell you what someone let me borrow a GT3 and you get your hands on a 71 Hemi Challenger and we will hit the track.

[speeder]

I'm an all-around gearhead, make no mistake about it. I like street rods, well-executed muscle cars, early 'vettes, european exotica, even British cars. I just know the limitations of the different genres, and the limitations of a 1970 Challenger in original form is that they had a build quality like they were put together by drunken whores in spaghetti factory and they absolutely refused to stop or turn. That's not elitism, unless the truth has become elite.

Believe it or not, I still find them intriguing for some reason, but mostly nostalgic. My neighbor in the '60s had a '66 Hemi Satellite that was a real sleeper, (looked like a stock bread-box car w/ wheel covers), and my buddy in HS in the early '70s bought a brand new AAR 'cuda, w/ 340 6-pack. When C&D tested the AAR 'cuda, the shifter busted loose from the transmission during 1/4 mile runs, (like something out of a cartoon), and the F/G hood fit so poorly that they wise-cracked that you could check the oil w/o lifting the hood.

I realise that since they have become so precious there are people who "re-engineer" them so that they stop, turn and do not fall apart as they drive down the road, but that is not what they were like "back in the day". They were POSs that went fast in a straight line, (although the 1/4 mile times for stock tired and suspension Hemi cars was slower than a new SUV today), and made a lot of noise. They were basically Harley panheads on 4 wheels.

A 1972 911 and a 1972 domestic car are so different in quality and execution that they might as well not be the same type of machine. The Porsche back then was truly built like a Swiss watch by great artisans, the reason that your car is so special Paul is because the opposite happens when people "re-engineer" an old 911. The end quality goes down, 10 times out of 10. You have a rare example of the real deal, not "improved" over the years by lesser artists.

[speeder]

Yeah, I can't really see the GT-3 vs. old Hemi turd race unless by "open enough track" you mean the Bonneville salt flats and the Hemi is strapped into an aerodynamic tube w/ a crazy overdrive.

On any road circuit on earth the GT-3 would lap the muscle car like it was parked. And yes, I am familiar w/ the aftermarket parts available these days. I have friends w/ Magazine cover muscle cars w/ 700 HP crate motors and NASCAR suspensions, etc.. The GT-3 would mop the floor w/ them.

[pwd72s]

But Denis, the GT3 doesn't turn my crank like some old Muscle does...I guess it's all a taste thing. I said SOME old muscle...for example I only liked the early Mustangs...they bulked up the lines too much in '67 and subsequent years...the '65 GTO was the best looking to my eyes, and so on. The GT3? A fast car for sure, but it's looks don't excite me. But I'll never become a "porsche is best" elitist...no way, no how.

[Jeff Higgins]

I'm not saying any old original technology muscle car (yes, they really are "turds" in every sense of the word) would have a prayer against a GT3. For $250k you could certainly build one that would, though. Actually, you could build one for a fifth of that if cosmetics were not important. It would be way more than the proverbial "polished turd", too. Your run-of-the-mill hot-rodded muscle car is seldom built with roadrace type performance in mind however, no matter how much cash is poured down that rat hole. The ones that are, though, are very fast when done properly.

This car could be made to weigh well under 3,000 pounds. My '69 Super Bee, a much larger car, was around 2,800, but it was pretty well gutted for drag racing. It could fit some enormous brakes inside those huge rims. Aftermarket suspensions change all of the pick-up points and geometry. Like I said, the only limitations are the live axles, which are not as great a hinderance as some may think. Remember Colin Chapman - "even the poorest of suspension designs can be made to work well if kept from moving". That's kind of the idea with these.

So in the end you have a car that matches a GT3 in weight and braking ability. It has 70-80% more horsepower and double the torque. Aerodynamics do suck, but that's what air dams and spoilers are for. The handling is not quite as good, but closer than I think most would believe.

There are two old American cars that regularly run our track days up here at Pacific Raceways. One is a '66 Mustang set up like a Trans Am car of the day, but with all of the modern suspension bits and brakes. Fully caged and front and rear suspensions tied in, powered by a pretty hot little 302, weighing in the low 2,000's. When he is out there, not many cars will hang with him, including our local GT3's. The other is a Chevelle 454 SS with a 570-some-odd-inch crate motor with what the guy claims is over 700 ponies. It too has the brakes and suspension from the modern NASCAR wannabe aftermarket. It really needs to go on a diet to finish it, as it still weighs close to 4,000 pounds. Nothing will stay with it on the top half, but down in the lower half in the woods, its weight really shows.

Again, build quality is a non-issue at this level. When they are rebuilt completely by hand, as this Challenger apparently was, there is nothing left of the original build. While it is true that most people will actually reduce the build quality of an old Porsche at home in their spare time, these old pigs have nowhere to go but up. There are some great fabricators building some very capable cars out of these things. Again, most are built for drag racing or more show than go, but every now and then some one extracts their full potential. I'm not saying this particular car fits that description, but it certainly looks like it might. They are on the right track, anyway.

[scottmandue]

One of my dream cars would be to build a tube frame 55 Chevy with an aluminum 305, enormous brakes, top of the line suspension, fiberglass body, and take it to track days and embarrass expensive sports car owners.

BTW the frame and glass body are already available.