http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6254141.stm
Mabye we can add insurance coverage reform to the very long list. I've driven for over 20 years and never caused an accident, yet I pay over $100/month subsidizing expensive plastic bumpers and bad/agressive drivers.

I'm starting to think the public at large has been desensitized to scandal/etc. to the point that a catastrophy has to happen before that "common sense" community thing kicks in.

Keep the public enthralled with sports and plasma screens, and one need not worry about the real issues.

I shouldn't be one to talk, though. I can't remember the last time I went to a city council meeting. We're all guilty to some extent.

I am not ashamed to admit I hold stock in big healthcare. If my pocket is filled with profits, I can ignore the downsides. :o

Spoken like a man who truely knows nothing about the Michigan economy.

Yup HD, very little about macroeconomics I'll admit thx. French was a required course back in high school, economics was not.

The orgin of the argument was from the point of political stance, and who would sway back towards the realitys of the situation.
The reality is that states have to open their beaks up the widest so they will get the treat from the ever-consolidating corporations that are allowed to pick and choose. And not by chance. This has been embeded in US economic law since the robber barrons.
Not a bad thing in terms of efficiency, but it kills the diversity of small business and history has shown big companys fall harder.

This is still a fine example of corporate corruption, though, with taxpayer money going strait into the hands of private business execs, and if Granholm had direct personal or business ties to Ford it would closely mirror the Haliburton situation at the federal level.

I'll be around april 15th, but I think the US in general is in for some long-term hardships with the out of control Heloc's, retraining other countries in our business practices, and a multitude of other planning factors.

For those interested, here is an example of Fords customer relations and quality. I'm sure there are plenty of other similar sites that can be found: http://philip.greenspun.com/politics/litigation/ford-story

Correct and its really sad to see all the empty buildings in this area. Agree with Tim's comments as well and their is no easy answer.

One thing is that we need the big 3 to start building better products, not the replace yearly crap that they have been making the last 30 years.

Didn't we just have a conversation about how VW is paying its workers $80K to work 28-hour work weeks? Didn't we notice that VW is kicking Ford and GM's ass up one side of the planet and down the other? Sounds like VW's labor costs are WAY WAY higher than GM's.

Well, ummmmm.....does anyone suspect that maybe, perhaps, there is a thin outside chance that management actually does something in an organization. That perhaps there are variables in play other than those evil workers and their exhorbitant earnings? Heck, if Labor is to blame for the failure of these companies, then I guess two other things must be true. First, Management must have been absent from the bargaining table? Second, Management doesn't do anything (since the failure of a company is dependent on what Labor earns). I'm guessing that if one of these companies does very well, Management gets the credit.

So, let me get this straight. Management earns millions of dollars per year and that is well-earned when the company has good earnings, and well-earned when Management is backed into a corner and must lay off tens of thousands of workers but.....

If the company does poorly then Labor is to blame?

You guys are so smart.

Oh, and I guess a minimum wage hike that always perpetually fails to keep up with inflation is bad policy, but throwing millions of dollars at companies to save Management and investors is good policy?

Like I say, you guys seem to have it all figured out. At least.....from the perspective of investors and management.

I'm curious what you think the average UAW worker makes including benefits per year.

After that, we can discuss "labor costs per vehicle", and I'll assume you think VW's is much higher?

I don't know if Supe's 80k figure at VW is correct or not, but a guy that used to work at my day job as a machinist, reportedly made 150k last year at Ford as a maintenance guy, he also claimed his job is much less stressful compared to when he made 50k working as a machinist at our shop. Union rules allow him to sit around doing nothing a good portion of his day while waiting around for a union electrician or a union controls guy or a union plumber, etc etc to come and remove simple items that the union forbids him to address himself.

Maybe VW can fire non-productive employees for being lazy? (unlike the union protected overpaid UAW guys) Doesn't suprise me that Supe supports a MW hike as it smells the same as overpaid union broom and button pushers at the big three.

While we may agree on several other issues, my idea of fair and Supe's will never coincide when it comes to mandated wages being forced upon businesses by govt or unions.

Unions may have been a good thing back in the child labor days, but now they are only good for driving companies out of business due to the economy being more and more global.

Remembering the '97 UPS strike, the Teamsters went "bankrupt" and did nothing for employees(some?). Nothing! We got $25/week from the afl-cio emergency funds.
Ron Carys corruption b.s was the straw in the hat for me.

And yes, there were some employees that sat around on their butt all day, but they were veterans of years of injury/discrimination/etc. legal sparring whom the company didn't want to touch. Everyone else was given 2-3 times the workload for a normal pace.

I thought that unionization was not voted in at some of the new US Honda/Toyota plants because the pay was relative, had health benefits, and managment was responsible and responsive.
No one was in constant fear of managment pulling any major b.s. policy swings on them... so they didn't need "protection". The big three could have learned a lot from that.

I suspect we both believe that our differences are not that great. On the issue of mandated wages such as minimum wage, I honestly have plenty of respect for "market" forces and avoidance of unnecessary regulation, yadda yadda. And frankly, with the exception of Fastpaste, we all know that markets need regulation. We accept that. I hope we don't have to go over it again. Environmental. Labor regs. Bear in mind that labor regs do much of what Labor representatives used to do. In the absence of labor regs, labor unions would be WAY more popular and widely accepted. There are some pretty nasty tricks that companies can play on each other, on labor markets and on consumers. Again, each of us here seems to accept the necessity of regulations, with very few exceptions. The question of whether there should be no wage floor in regulation is alive. I'm not sure you guys would prefer an absence of a regulated wage floor and the mechanisms that would step into that void if the regulation were repealed.

And as far as lazy union folks whose protections are so great that they can sit on their asses and make $150K per year while their employers lay off hundreds of thousands of workers.....well I hope you guys don't think I'm comfortable with that. That'd make me a ridiculous asshat. And maybe that's what I am. But at least I'm a ridiculous asshat who rejects workplace insanity. For the most part.

One more thing. John mentioned Honda and Toyota, and the absence of the union's ability to organize that workforce. Listen up. Quite frankly, my favorite companies are the ones whose regard for and communication with their workers is so good that the workers cannot be convinced that a labor union would be helpful. I think that's great. Again, those are my favorite companies. I smile at that idea. And here's another goofy idea. If I ran a company, this is how I would prefer to behave. And even though I would very likely have a workforce that is comfortable with my approach and disinterested in being in a union, I would still prefer that they be in a union. That way, they would not need to assume, or trust, and I would have a single point of contact. It would give both parties a kind of third-party administrator thing. It would formalize my relationship and dialogue with the workers and help protect both parties. Again, it would be my preference. That's assuming the union leader has integrity.

http://www.ci.concord.nh.us/budget/37%205hrUAW.pdf
Pay is 11 to 25 per hour.


and GM paid $3800 per health member.

http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/workplace/300_wages/index.html

Thanks Steve, but these guys prefer made-up statistics over published facts.

Now I know an individual can make more by overtime, but I think 150K is not possible unless management has no clue as to how to manage their work load.

That's exactly right. If the lazy, freeloading coffee-drinking work avoider is given 40 hours of overtime each week by management, in addition to his regular 40 hours, and if OT is always double-time, then his earnings would be $150,000.

Im thinking about management when I imagine offering 40 overtime hours per week, all year, to the lazy freeloader. I'm thinking that's an interesting managerial decision. Of course, ultimately, it become the union's fault. Management does not control the destiny of companies. Silly.

Wages and benefits for the average GM worker is well over six figures a year. I believe it is close to $150k but I will get you stats later. Your UAW base sheet is worthless.

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000006&sid=aBZUjbUBbXkk&refer=home

GM's UAW workers earn total hourly pay, including benefits and pension, of about $73.73, Flores said. That includes an hourly wage of about $27, he said.


So that's about $150K. The actual pay is maxed at $50k/year w/o overtime. Their max actual take home pay w/o overtime is <$40K. Not highly paid workers.

I am not sure how they get that $73.73 number.

GM has said that pension costs are $38000 per employee and medical is $3800, so that might get you to $96K including all benefits.

Steve, that's because you don't understand the union black mailed style of stealth raises. These guys get an extra $1.25 an hour if they have proven to be an accomplished nut scratcher, another $2.30 an hour if they pass the test proving proficiency in ass hair braiding, etc.. etc.... I think these are called "certificates" and they are not considered in base wages.

The whole thing is a scam.

Well, I can't find any info on those, even from GM news sources, Surely they would use that information to inflate the max pay rate, but that $27 is a GM quote.

There are different pay steps on the wage scales in steps 1-10, I suspect those are for increasing skills.
http://www.ci.concord.nh.us/budget/37%205hrUAW.pdf

Why is the GM quote of $27 an hour AVERAGE over the MAX claimed on the UAW chart then?

I would add that your article is also about Delphi, not GM. And though they are related they are not the same.

I do not know what his pay rate is, but I was told he works all the OT he can get including holidays and pay is doubled or tripled during some of those times.

He is in maintenance so he is a bit more skilled and presumably higher paid than a button or broom pusher.

Many button and broom pushers probably make at least 50k even
though many would be fortunate to make half that based on their skills and or secondary education were they working a non-union job. In my book that means that in general the tens of thousands of UAW workers are grossly overpaid due the union. It should suprise no one that the big three is hurting badly. A couple overpaid management types are a drop in the bucket compared to the astronomical amount of money being pissed away on overpaid workers.

I am not saying management is 100% guiltless, but looking at the big picture, I am shocked the big three have lasted this long.

Well, that is exactly how we thought he could make that much. Very poor management , indeed if he is not an isolated case where the cost to get another worker outweighs paying overtime.

The max that GM workers make is ~$50k straight-time.

The GM quote was a max number of $27, the max in the data sheet is $26, and you could add 3% for this years raise and get $27. The arithmetic average is ~$19, the mean is ~$25 because nearly half of GM's workers have ~30 years of service and are at the top of the pay scale. That is the real problem that GM has, that is why GM wants a two tier pay scale but it will take another 5 years before all the top end pay workers will be gone, and that is why GM is offering buyouts to get them off the rolls now.

Cost of living in the midwest and payscales are different than on the coasts. I will bet Lendaddy's AVERAGE SKILLED non-college grad employee might make $15.00-$18.00/hr. At the same time across town, a NON SKILLED button pusher UAW guy makes $25.00+ hr and does not have to work very hard because the union is backing him. This just makes no sense. Management cannot just simply demand that the slackers shape up or be fired, if they did much of that, the union would strike.

BTW, I am not saying that ALL union workers are lazy, unskilled or stupid. I am just saying the payscales are just WAY TOO HIGH compared to other non-union jobs in the same part of the country.

Tim, that may be a very valid point.

I was just trying to provide real data rather than the apocryphal salaries of 150K.

Yeah? Well.....you mother wears Army boots.

I brought this guy up because I know him and he is a prime example of someone who is overpaid compared to what he made doing a harder job at a non UAW shop. One of his nephews still works at the company I am with and he provided the 150k number so I am fairly confident it is accurate.

I am actually happy for the guy and he "works" more OT at Ford than he did at our shop, but 150K for a non educated skilled worker is just way over the top in this part of the country.

Agreed. There should not be exhorbitant premium pay and then it should be sparingly used, however it seems this guy has found a real niche and works it quite well.