Parlant en français ne laisse pas un goût de pénis dans votre bouche ?

The US government surrendered in Vietnam, Korea, and will inevitably surrender in Iraq.

You may continue to lie to yourself all you wish.

Its a rare day when I agree with fintstone, but this is certainly true.

Strange, I have read this entire post, and I don't quite see why you guys are attacking fintstone. I disagree with him 99% of the time, but not in this case.

Making war against Hilter was not noble? It was just a dirty job that had to be done? I disagree. There is evil in the world, and sitting by and doing nothing about it....well ones inaction is just as evil.

Today its seems, we are quite divided about where the evil exists in the world. Its a conflicted time. But lets not let that cloud history. There are forces of darkness that must be fought on occasion.

Fint,

Its not worth arguing with our member from Belgium. Anything we say he is against. If I say the sun raises in the East he would find an argument against it.

As for fighting, just look at their record in WW2. They do not know how to fight for something worth saving.

Save your time (and keystrokes) for a discussion with someone who is at least a bit rational. You can never explain to someone who has not been in combat what its like, never.

There was no need for America to be involved in World War Two in europe. The Germans and the Russians would have exhausted themselves on the eastern front, the British would have run the Germans back into Germany, and the Germans would have liquidated the National Socialists.

The invasion and conquest of Germany was totally unnecessary; in fact it was counter-productive in that it left huge parts of europe at the mercy of the Soviet Union which otherwise would have remained free.

Hmmm. So, Pat, if you were to put a label on your political alignment, it would be constitutionalist?

I was a USN Corpsman attached to the 1st Marine Div in Desert Storm and I was a surgical tech, working in the surgical/recovery room areas. Nothing "noble" about bloodshed except for the individual's actions and deeds. War is a terrible way to see how brave people suffer and die...

I totally buy into everything you said. My perceived disagreement is that the troops accept the nobility of the cause as they're fighting and dying, which is patently absurd.

Jack

individual actions can be noble. overarching concepts promulgated by governments are not.

imho

From demanding a law abiding government, perhaps that could be said.

More specifically, politically, I'm libertarian; economically I'm anarcho-capitalist.

That's the second most successful propaganda story by the US government; number one in my opinion remains the idea that every American is completely in debt to the federal government for the quality of life they lead.

That's patently absurd as well.

sure Joe... and you've been in many wars i presume? so you know how noble it is then??

the concept of war , beeing so noble, i wonder why nations don't strive to be at war continuously... oh wait... never mind...

listen to azasadny... he's saying exactly what i mean to say
and he was there, he has seen it up close, like Fint, i'll ask you the same question...which war did you go to, and why was it so noble to you??? so far we have 2 folks on this thread saying they did see war, and both say it's not at all noble...or were you "in the rear , with the gear" as they say?? flying zoomies from up high??? guess it's a bit more clean from 30 000 feet high isn't it? push a button , drop a bomb,something goes BOOOMM?? was that the noble war you fought Joe???

+1

War in of itself is not noble...and no one has suggested it is... Making the sacrifice required to serve one's country and go to war to defend your country is certainly noble.
The case you make here...is as always, that people join and stay in the military strictly for economic reasons or because they are sadistic bastards...I subscribe to neither theory...and am surprised that you have managed to get folks that have served to agree with you. Perhaps that is why their service was short...or perhaps you misrepresent their position. I, like many others (hence celebration of Memorial Day, etc) consider the service of the American military to be quite noble and worth honoring and emulating. Of course, I certainly would never expect you to understand.

but you did suggest exactly that
allow me to refresh your memory:






you said it , not me
i say War is not noble, it's the failure of society and is an example of mankind at it's worst...that's the concept of war, no fun no glory, not noble

the actions of men and women during a war may be noble,but war itself is never noble...

if you cannot distuinguish between these 2 statements... then again , that's not my english , that's yours ...i've used 2 different colors this time, perhaps that will clear things up

Before you hurt your arm patting yourself on the back...Good try, but as always, your point is poorly taken.
Please note that where you quote me:
"War in of itself is not noble...and no one has suggested it is... "
and then:
"War is quite noble when it is the last alternative to something much worse."
I do not contradict myself as you seem to indicate...as war as "the last alternative to something much worse" is certainly not "war in of itself."

Looks like you are starting to come around. That is an improvement over your earlier:

It would appear that our fundamental difference is that the reason for war is inconsequential to you while it is of great significance to me. Thanks for sharing the lovely colors.

wow. "soundly defeated the North Vietnamese." I don't know anyone that would say that...well, except you.

It is without doubt by any statistic I am aware of...other than in the US press. We were defeated soundly in the propaganda dept...but they had lots of help....much like our current enemies.

i never denied that actions of men during a war could not be noble at times... but that wasn't what we were talking about. you just got sidetracked...


i bet you would have liked a rainbow even more right? :D