Assuming 40 hour work week. Living expenses are extremely high in the immediate area, but home prices are much lower if you can live with a 30-45 minute commute.

Notice the state AVERAGE is $59,000.

So, if it's such a phat gig, why aren't more people beating down the doors to get into the profession?

Maybe they've heard about my kids.

I have...why do you think I'm trying to move to China :p

Neighboring Danville is $55k at ten years and Pleasanton is $73.

man, I was teaching in the wrong district. I need to tell my daughter about this.


of course, she could not afford a starter home at $700K in Pleasanton, but she could commute.

WSJ
Free to Choose in Utah
February 2, 2007; Page A18


Another brick could soon fall from the Berlin Wall that surrounds America's failing public schools, as Utah's legislature considers what would be the first universally available statewide voucher program in America.

The voucher bill passed out of committee earlier this week and is backed by Governor Jon Huntsman. It would offer students who attend private K-12 schools from $500 to $3,000 in tuition reimbursement based on family income. While Utah is known for its Mormon population, the biggest winners under the plan would be the state's growing Hispanic population, who haven't done well in general in Utah public schools.

As usual, local school boards and the state teachers union (the Utah Education Association) are fighting the idea, claiming that it will "drain" money from public schools. This hardly seems likely because the $9 million cost of the program is about 0.5% of total school spending. And the voucher maximum of $3,000 is less than half the state per child public-school spending average of $6,325. The voucher bill also allows Utah public schools to keep the difference between the voucher amount paid out to students who leave and the $6,325 per pupil average.

Vouchers are working in a handful of cities, such as Cleveland, Milwaukee, and Washington, D.C. Former Florida Governor Jeb Bush also promoted a statewide plan, until a liberal state court invented constitutional objections. The evidence on student performance has mostly been favorable in these schools, and research by Harvard economist Carolyn Hoxby has found that the presence of vouchers has caused the public schools to improve their performance as well.

So let's hope Utah lawmakers stare down the opposition and give this statewide experiment a try. "For the unions, this vote is about protecting their monopoly," House Speaker Greg Curtis says. "They don't like vouchers for the same reason blacksmiths didn't welcome the Model T."


ps: above is WSJ writing

the author of opening post is listed in last paragraph.




"Mr. Greene holds the endowed chair of education reform at the University of Arkansas and is a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute, where Mr. Winters is a senior research associate. Their report, "How Much Are Public School Teachers Paid?," was released this week."

So where will the money come from?

I have, and I do, and it is.

Easy...I don't know about your state, but here, the state makes payments to the government schools based on enrollment numbers. If the voucher is (out of air figure) 1/2 the amount that was paid to the government school, the government school gets the other 1/2...for NOT teaching that student. (edit) If the government schools want those $ back, they can try doing a better job at what they do. It's called competition and choice....
The teacher's union monopoly is beginning to fall apart. This taxpayer loves it. I'll probably never live long enough to see a bill like Utah's make it in Oregon though. Once this is in place, look for Utah's school test scores to begin outstripping the states where the union still runs the show. People will begin to catch on.
It'll take time, but it's the best shot this country has to be able to compete globally on the education front.

a point of reference

local school pays starting teachers $45.5K per year for the first five years, that is correct, no increase for the first five years

local kids just got jobs: girl with a BA from Chico got a job for $50k, boy with BS from Cal Poly just started at $54K



pwd72 you seem to think the union casues poor test scores, how is that?

Just for comparison. I looked at the school calendar for my kids school (public in So. Cal). I totaled the number of vacation days off, and came up with 106 days!! 81 days for summer, 3 for Thanksgiving, 12 for Christmas, 5 for Easter, etc. For the record, 106 days off calculates out to 3.53 months off per year. Just for comparison:D

yeah, 3 months off without pay

nice if your single and renting

not nice, if a family man with no job

That works out to be exactly 3.53 months off WITH pay. Most teachers in this area opt to be paid 26 times per year, or every 2 weeks. The school district pays salaries here, not by the hour. Riverside County, So Cal. The teachers here are great, and deserve this kind of first class treatment. :D

I have to say a lot of what Berretafan and some of the others who have commented here have substance. I worked for a large high school district for 30+ years and saw the teaching side and the management side, though as a manager of programs rather than school administration. I could never stomach the politics and hypocrisy involved with that. I won't even start on the delightful intricacies of where the money goes, priorities relating to student behavior, and toleration of bad teachers, custodians, counselors, administrators, etc., etc. It's all a convoluted mess.
I will say there are good teachers, great teachers, teachers there for the paycheck, and really bad teachers. My wife teaches and is there at 7:30 and leaves around 5:30. She recently started teaching - this is her third year, and she received the teacher of the year for her school again this year. This is her second year in a row. She works until 10 or 11 at night, gets 3 weeks off at a time (year around school schedule), and spends most of the 3 weeks preparing for the upcoming term. Her students leave her class above grade level and are bored with the subject matter for the first half of the next school year.
It would be great if there was some way of rewarding those who work hard and produce positive results and penalize those who don't. I see that as the only way to instill initiative, and attract competent teachers and discourage the crappy ones. It will never happen though.

In order to survive, the system MUST find a way to reward excellence in teaching. Your wife has taken a professional approach to her job and should be compenated accordingly.

If merit pay were awarded and tenure abandoned, voters would pass bond measures willingly and support our public schools enthusiastically.

I believe that the excellent teachers are underpaid everywhere, and the poor teachers overpaid everywhere.

+1 The only way to reward excellence involves getting rid of the NEA, aptly dubbed "The National Extortion Association" by Ron...
They have the gall to call themselves "professionals". Moses, you're a professional...do you have both collective bargaining and tenure?

So who will be teaching the poor kids? The child from the broken home who gets no parental support or encouragement? What about the child with learning disabilities? I doubt many teachers would be willing to go to an inner city or poor rural school if they're just going to get the boot when they fail to single handedly defeat drugs, racism and pre-teen pregnancy in one semester.

Merit pay? Sounds like a wonderful incentive for less than honest teachers and administrators to assist students in cheating on standardized tests. Oh, wait, that already happens thanks to 'no child left behind' aka 'no parent held responsible'.

Certainly you guys think of yourselves as intelligent folks. Aren't you a product of the very system you're bashing? "it's different now" you say? Yup, it sure is. Teachers have their hands tied behind their backs in the war on drugs, teen pregnancy and parental ignorance and standardized testing is seen as the great equalizer.

You guys need to realize that 'excellence' is often just another way of saying 'teaches well adjusted white kids from homes with strong families'.

My wife was recently telling me about the 'teacher of the year' in her county. Inside info was that this girl was definitely a cut above (unlike winners in some prior years where several teachers actually refused the award as it was simply an invitation to lose more teaching time) and was implementing some great ideas. My wife, along with many others, wanted to adapt some of these ideas for their own schools (different socio-economic backgrounds) but were told BY ADMIN that there was NO TIME for this as the latest set of gov't nonsense procedures had been handed down and everybody needs to be working on CYA and test-prepping if they are to be seen as worth in the eyes of unqualified politicians far removed from the day to day grind of teaching.

Vouchers DON'T fix this. WTF would i pay taxes for public schools while at the same time support a voucher system whose main premise is the supposed failure of public schools?! It's assinine! This does not address the core problems.

Paul and Moses if you guys want to see a difference in what our schools are turning out you need to start knocking on the doors of students and asking their parents to get involved! After that you can volunteer to tutor the same kids when the parents fail to get involved or the STATE fails to provide adequate funding to give them personal attention that they may need.

+1, +2, +3, ... on parent involvement!

The mantra of the National Extortion Association: "It's the parent's fault." I just don't buy that. Sure there are parents who don't care. Probably on a par with teachers who don't care. Let's get back to people who call themselves professionals, yet have both collective bargaining and tenure...The teacher's union stranglehold on this nations government education system must be removed for the system to have a chance.

If the NEA had a stranglehold on the gov't there would be no standardized testing. 'no child left behind' would never have seen the light of day.

BTW, my wife is a dues paying member of the NEA for one reason. The state/fed can not be trusted to defend her if a parent cries foul for any reason. NEA provides insurance/paid access to an attorney. This is important as many parents at my wife's school have demonstrated an ability to claim 'i'll sue for millions' when their child is sent to alternative school (ie inmate training) for beating another child senseless.

And the beat goes on...this thread demonstrates well why our government school system will not be fixed.

"Those of us who have long dismissed the National Education Association as a tool of the Democratic Party have been badly mistaken. Apparently it's just the opposite. As documents now sealed under a judge's order indicate, it's the Democratic Party that is the tool of the NEA.

That, at least, is the gist of a report from the Federal Election Commission, all the more tantalizing because the object of its investigation was not the NEA but the AFL-CIO. Yet the NEA's name surfaces again and again as one of those organizations that, in return for financial contributions, were given seats on campaign committees in 1996 as well as the right to approve or reject the Democratic agenda."

http://opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=95000909







http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=10190

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/1/24/105439.shtml

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politics/browse_thread/thread/44f531cfdb2d1023/991b8c72e41589be?lnk=st&q=Teacher%27s+union+has+ve to+in+Democratic+Party&rnum=4&hl=en#991b8c72e41589 be

If a public school teacher told me they worked 60 hours a week, I'd call them a no good liar to their face.
The only exception might be teachers who are involved in coaching sports or other extra-curricular activities after school, and that would be for a season, not all year.

they get paid for that in many areas of the US afaik.

Yep....they get paid for these "volunteer" activities. Dunno if it's true now, but during my daughter's time, Lebanon Union High School, Lebanon, Oregon, had ELEVEN "assistant" Football coaches for the varsity team....Eleven. With the head coach, that made an even dozen. But hey, they went to the state championship game one of those years. Isn't that what high school is supposed to be all about? :rolleyes:

my mom easily worked that many hours a week when she taught 5th grade gifted in SDUSD. And spent her own cash on supplies for her room. I know because i went to the school supply store a couple times a year.

Some of you guys really hate teachers. I still don't understand why you guys don't jump on this gravytrain. Not only would you have all this free time to work on your p-cars, you'd actually be contributing to society...

And if you did that to my wife who did work those kind of hours I'd call you a lot worse.

And she did not do extracurricular stuff.

Believe what you want but you're wrong.

One man, a CEO, decided to explain the problem with education.
He argued, "What's a kid going to learn from someone who decided his best option in life was to become a teacher?"

He reminded the other dinner guests what they say about teachers:
"Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach."

To stress his point he said to another guest; "You're a teacher, Bonnie. Be honest. What do you make?"

Bonnie, who had a reputation for honesty and frankness replied,
"You want to know what I make? (She paused for a second, then began...)
"Well, I make kids work harder than they ever thought they could.
I make a C+ feel like the Congressional Medal of Honor.
I make kids sit through 40 minutes of class time when their parents can't make them sit for 5 without an I Pod, Game Cube or movie rental...
You want to kn ow what I make?" (She paused again and looked at each and every person at the table.)
I make kids wonder.
I make them question.
I make them criticize.
I make them apologize and mean it.
I make them have respect and take responsibility for their actions.
I teach them to write and then I make them write.
I make them read, read, read.
I make them show all their work in math.
I make my students from other countries learn everything they need
to know in English while preserving their unique cultural identity.
I make my classroom a place where all my students feel safe.
I make my students stand to say the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag,
because we live in the United States of America.
Finally, I make them understand that if they use the gifts they were given, work hard, and follow their hearts, they can succeed in life.

(Bonnie paused one last time and then continued.)
"Then, when people try to judge me by what I make, I can hold my head up high and pay no attention because they are ignorant...
You want to know what I make?

I MAKE A DIFFERENCE. What do you make?"

Isn't that sweet? Which NEA newsletter did you glean it from?

I'm in the minority here. Not too many teachers with P-cars. I worked teaching most of my life (30+ years) to be able to afford the 1971 911 I always wanted. Heck its not even running. I don't seem to have the time to work on it because there is always another soccer game to go to, basketball, etc etc. I've used up many of "my summers off" taking classes to improve my craft. Ha, some people draw unemployment when they don't work - for teachers its called.......... "summer vacation".

You guys are welcome to beliveve whatever you want, I'm not about to change your belief system. A lot of people used to believe the world was flat too. You're welcome to call me a no good liar right to my face, I've been called worse. Some have really no idea, "walk a mile in my shoes". I would dare some of you to fill out the paperwork and try being a teacher sub for a day. Good Luck.

LOL I have a kid tha acts just like you in class! I wonder if he will ever grow up?

won't happen. They'd actually have to get off their arse and do something rather than take potshots. You'd think that people who know all the answers and have the time to slag teachers and the NEA would instead rather be making a real contribution to society in the classroom.

Sorry but some people here for whatever reason just hate teachers. Maybe they got a bad grade in school once and have been bitter ever since. Or had one or two off-putting situations with their kids so they indict the entire profession. Whatever the reason, the vitriol is sad...

Thanks nostatic, there are a lot of kids nowdays with the same attitude. No respect for anything except "whats init for me" . The societies that value their teachers and education make great strides, the ones that don't, well........I hope we don't find out the hard way.

Yeah...be sure to keep up the great work guys...pat yourselves on the back...but try to think of something. On this thread, those who urge that we continue to stay the course on education, are, for the most part, educationalists....it's we who aren't in the profession, aren't good NEA members or related closely with one who is, are beginning to wonder why the system is so screwed up...

Oh, I forgot..."It's the parent's fault." :rolleyes:

where did I say stay the course? Oh yeah, I didn't. I'm all for trying new ideas, vouchers included. But the plan better be well thought out and not some knee jerk reaction with no real analysis of the short and long term effects.

The system has problems. But some of us are actually doing something to try and change it rather than just blaming the teachers. Put up or shut up.

I'm DONE putting up...but how did I get so down on the teacher's union? By being a dumbass local biz man...stupid enough to serve on a district budget committee. Boy, was that EVER a steep learning curve! Now, tell me what you're doing to try to change things. I'll confess, I gave up in frustration! But I left with the belief that the Government schools are a sewer system that we toss our children and our money into. Unless we release the NEA's stranglehold...our government schools are a lost cause.

What am I doing? For 5 years I was a professor and sent some of my students on to teaching careers. After that I ran a new media research center for 5 years and one of our major projects focused on multimedia literacy. We had ongoing projects with various K-12 districts around the country. I also worked (and continue to work) on research looking at new models for classroom interactions. I have another research project now focused on applying viral media techniques to open education resources (freely available higher ed content). I am also looking at leveraging some of our training systems designed for the Army to be used in K-16 education. And while I'm at it I'm also working to help improve training simulation systems designed for incident commanders at large scale disasters, and intelligence analysts.