$34/hr without bennies

[RoninLB]

WSJ 2/2/07
p. A19


Who, on average, is better paid -- public school teachers or architects? How about teachers or economists? You might be surprised to learn that public school teachers are better paid than these and many other professionals. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, public school teachers earned $34.06 per hour in 2005, 36% more than the hourly wage of the average white-collar worker and 11% more than the average professional specialty or technical worker.

In the popular imagination, however, public school teachers are underpaid. "Salaries are too low. We all know that," noted First Lady Laura Bush, expressing the consensus view. "We need to figure out a way to pay teachers more." Indeed, our efforts to hire more teachers and raise their salaries account for the bulk of public school spending increases over the last four decades. During that time per-pupil spending, adjusted for inflation, has more than doubled; overall we now annually spend more than $500 billion on public education.

The perception that we underpay teachers is likely to play a significant role in the debate to reauthorize No Child Left Behind. The new Democratic majority intends to push for greater education funding, much of which would likely go toward increasing teacher compensation. It would be beneficial if the debate focused on the actual salaries teachers are already paid.

It would also be beneficial if the debate touched on the correlation between teacher pay and actual results. To wit, higher teacher pay seems to have no effect on raising student achievement. Metropolitan areas with higher teacher pay do not graduate a higher percentage of their students than areas with lower teacher pay.

In fact, the urban areas with the highest teacher pay are famous for their abysmal outcomes. Metro Detroit leads the nation, paying its public school teachers, on average, $47.28 per hour. That's 61% more than the average white-collar worker in the Detroit area and 36% more than the average professional worker. In metro New York, public school teachers make $45.79 per hour, 20% more than the average professional worker in that area. And in Los Angeles teachers earn $44.03 per hour, 23% higher than other professionals in the area.

Evidence suggests that the way we pay teachers is more important than simply what they take home. Currently salaries are determined almost entirely by seniority -- the number of years in the classroom -- and the number of advanced degrees accumulated. Neither has much to do with student improvement.

There is evidence that providing bonuses to teachers who improve the performance of their students does raise academic proficiency. With our colleagues at the University of Arkansas we found that a Little Rock program providing bonuses to teachers based on student gains on standardized tests substantially increased math proficiency. Researchers at the University of Florida recently found similar results in a nationwide evaluation.

Of course, public school teacher earnings look less impressive when viewed on an annual basis than on an hourly basis. This is because teachers tend to work fewer hours per year, with breaks during the summer, winter and spring. But comparing earnings on an annual basis would be inappropriate when teachers work significantly fewer hours than do other workers. Teachers can use that time to be with family, to engage in activities that they enjoy, or to earn additional money from other employment. That time off is worth money and cannot simply be ignored when comparing earnings. The appropriate way to compare earnings in this circumstance is to focus on hourly rates.

Moreover, the earnings data reported here, which are taken directly from the National Compensation Survey conducted by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, do not include retirement and health benefits, which tend to be quite generous for public school teachers relative to other workers. Nor do they include the nonmonetary benefit of greater job security due to the tenure that most public school teachers enjoy.

Educators sometimes object that hourly earnings calculations do not capture the additional hours they work outside of school, but this objection is not very compelling. First, the National Compensation Survey is designed to capture all hours actually worked. And teachers are hardly the only wage earners who take work home with them.

The fact is that teachers are better paid than most other professionals. What matters is the way that we pay public school teachers, not the amount. The next time politicians call for tax increases to address the problem of terribly underpaid public school teachers, they might be reminded of these facts.

Mr. Greene holds the endowed chair of education reform at the University of Arkansas and is a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute, where Mr. Winters is a senior research associate. Their report, "How Much Are Public School Teachers Paid?," was released this week.

[cowtown]

Lot of teachers in my family. Every one I've ever heard complaining about being underpaid also insists that he/she works 60 hours a week "grading papers," or "preparing for class."

I'm in the WSJ camp, myself.

[turbo6bar]

Public Service employees are compensated quite well. At the local city hall, public works guys are paid $25 and $35/hr (without benefits, though). That's not bad pay for a job requiring no formal education and in an area with median incomes of $45k/yr ($21/hr). $35/hr is more than most engineers here make.???

[RoninLB]

around here public service bennies are worth about 40%.

[Rearden]

Originally posted by cowtown
Lot of teachers in my family. Every one I've ever heard complaining about being underpaid also insists that he/she works 60 hours a week "grading papers," or "preparing for class."

I date one. She says the same thing.

[Tim Walsh]

I'm not sure how they would come up with that number.
http://www.ncpublicschools.org/docs/fbs/finance/salary/schedules/2006-07schedules.pdf

A first year teacher with a bachelors degree in NC makes 28,510/year. If you divide that up by 40 hours a week and 8 hours a day over ten months you end up with ~$17/hour gross. Also as a note My Fiance is at school before 7am in the morning and is usually out the door before 5:30, but never ever before 4 with 20 minutes for lunch. This does not include any extra curicular events that she is required to be at (football and basketball games for crowd control) Per the article this does not include any work taken home.

If you take the salary for a 15 year veteran you end up with ~$25/hour gross. Still not a whole lot

Also if we're compensating the teachers so well why are there so many teaching jobs that go unfilled?

Just some notes to ponder

[berettafan]

My wife earned $38k last year as a teacher. She spends, on average, 10hrs/week at home grading papers because her 'planning' time at school is being chewed up by bull**** 'no child left behind' projects. She has a masters degree and does several continuing ed programs every year on top of this.

To put that $38k in perspective the average 3br, 2ba w/ garage home in our county would cost in the neighborhood of $400,000.

She is forced to be polite when uneducated pigs tell her 'my baby dont take no **** from no teacher'. She is told that passing a state test is priority # 1 and any area of academics not covered on that test is unimportant.

She is told she must put up with kids when they mouth off in class and make threats to her well being under their breath. Sure, she can send them to the office where an administrator will say 'shame on you' and send them right back (if they want to keep their job they will anyways).

She is told that firing a bb gun on a bus is not really a problem and she will need to tolerate that child because nobody wants to deal with the parent if the kid is expelled.

She has to listen to clueless politicians tell her (and every other teacher in the US) that it is her fault kids are not making it in school today. Parents, in a teachers world, are not responsible for their children. At least that's the way 'no child left behind' sees it.

I'll be the first to admit those 2 months off in summer are right nice, but then again we'll be visiting Disney in the heart of August because she can not take time off as she chooses.

Overpaid? Nope.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Architectural salaries can vary pretty wildly depending on the particular firm and one's level of experience. A kid fresh out of school can make anywhere between $20k a year at a "sweatshop" firm to $40k a year if they sell themselves well and convince a good outfit they have something to offer. It goes up from there. Senior designers can easily crack $70k. Principles/owners can make well into the six figures.

It's not as bad as people think, but it's also very easy to get discouraged when looking and take an offer for the sake of taking an offer. And there are a lot of firms that take advantage of that to pad their bottom line. Hire some CAD grunt at $20 an hour and bill out at $50. Very common. Not as profitable as one thinks, but it does work to their advantage.

Similarly, benefits programs are all over the map from one firm to another - depends greatly.

[fastpat]

Just for comparison purposes, nurses (with more than 10 years experience) in the SF Bay area in CA make about $45.00 or so per hour plus benefits. The highest paid one that I worked with was at about the $51.00 hour rate.

[lendaddy]

Our friend has a masters(among many other certifications /additional degrees) and teaches 3-4th grade, she makes $80k/yr plus bennies. And they paid to get her her multiple degrees of course.

Her problem is that she moved a few years back but cannot get a job in that new area because her education makes her very expensive and she cannot negotiate those increases away as the union won't allow it. So her commute is very long.

[nostatic]

then y'all should go teach.

Cush job, high pay, low hours. Why in the world aren't all of you teachers? And don't use the, "don't want other teachers for colleagues" excuse, as soon all your buddies would move into this year-round vacation. Why bust your arse at your current job? I just don't get it...

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by nostatic
then y'all should go teach.

Cush job, high pay, low hours. Why in the world aren't all of you teachers? And don't use the, "don't want other teachers for colleagues" excuse, as soon all your buddies would move into this year-round vacation. Why bust your arse at your current job? I just don't get it...

Pointing out that public perception may be incorrect does not mean we want the career. There are many other factors involved that some people enjoy that others would loath.


Different strokes as they say.

[lendaddy]

I would add that I also know a couple younger teachers and their pay sucks (though the bennies are great). It seems as the union has sold out the younger teachers from what they tell me, concentrating on retirement and seniority as income drivers.

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by cowtown
Lot of teachers in my family. Every one I've ever heard complaining about being underpaid also insists that he/she works 60 hours a week "grading papers," or "preparing for class."

I'm in the WSJ camp, myself.

I was a university level teacher years ago. Spent 2-3 times the time grading paperwork and such that I spent in class. Still loved it... but made a hell of a lot less than $34 an hour.

[Jims5543]

Originally posted by berettafan
My wife earned $38k last year as a teacher. She spends, on average, 10hrs/week at home grading papers because her 'planning' time at school is being chewed up by bull**** 'no child left behind' projects. She has a masters degree and does several continuing ed programs every year on top of this.

To put that $38k in perspective the average 3br, 2ba w/ garage home in our county would cost in the neighborhood of $400,000.

She is forced to be polite when uneducated pigs tell her 'my baby dont take no **** from no teacher'. She is told that passing a state test is priority # 1 and any area of academics not covered on that test is unimportant.

She is told she must put up with kids when they mouth off in class and make threats to her well being under their breath. Sure, she can send them to the office where an administrator will say 'shame on you' and send them right back (if they want to keep their job they will anyways).

She is told that firing a bb gun on a bus is not really a problem and she will need to tolerate that child because nobody wants to deal with the parent if the kid is expelled.

She has to listen to clueless politicians tell her (and every other teacher in the US) that it is her fault kids are not making it in school today. Parents, in a teachers world, are not responsible for their children. At least that's the way 'no child left behind' sees it.

I'll be the first to admit those 2 months off in summer are right nice, but then again we'll be visiting Disney in the heart of August because she can not take time off as she chooses.

Overpaid? Nope.

That is all insanity. My sons Public school that he used to go to would never tolerate any of that BS.

A BB Gun being fired would expel him in a second the possesion of said BB gun would be grounds for expelling in itself. let alone firing it.

If my son EVER spoke back to a teacher he would be written up, he never did but it was not tolerated. His schools policy was R.O.A.R.

R - respect
O - organization
A - appearance
R - responsibility

They had a dress code, they had to treat each other with respect and on and on. We had to sign a contract with the school (parents and son) that stated all of the above.

My son was not a problem and had no problem living within the rules of the school. He was raised correctly. Our problem was the teachers that did not abide by these rules and then lied about breaking them. Hence our switching him to private school.

You are correct about only teaching them whatever is on the standard testing. That is all that matters.

My sons teachers in public school reported to work at 8 a.m. (classes started at 9) and were in their cars and on their way home by 4 PM. (Classes ended at 3:55) That folks is an 8 hour day with paid lunch. We know this for a fact because my wife tried to go to a class and talk to a teacher after school. The front office got snippy and told her they had been there since 8 a.m. and they were on their way home.

When I was working salary as a Professional Land Surveyor for a Corporation I was making 45K a year with benies. I worked 60+ hour weeks, I was not sitting home with my family grading papers either I was at the office away from my family. I worked Saturdays and Sunday mornings too. All for 45K a year and I did not get summers off.

The WSJ probably took an average for the country I have no doubt that in some areas there are better pay scales and others have worse. Its like that in all businesses.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

The wife of a very good friend of mine recently left her nursing gig at Stanford Medical. She was pulling down an easy $90k but the problem is even on that salary (plus his, which wasn't insignificant either), they couldn't afford a house for their kids and were living "okay" but hardly "comfortably". Some savings, some investment, no chance of affording real estate or getting ahead. It's a sad state of affairs.

They recently moved to Jackson, WY where she took over as Director of Nursing and makes about the same salary, but it goes considerably further up there. Tax situation is a HELL of a lot better in Wyoming too, although the phone calls I get complaining of -15 degree temperatures and three feet of new snow a day are more than enough to quash any notions of my going there anytime soon.

[Burnin' oil]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by nostatic
then y'all should go teach.

Cush job, high pay, low hours. Why in the world aren't all of you teachers? And don't use the, "don't want other teachers for colleagues" excuse, as soon all your buddies would move into this year-round vacation. Why bust your arse at your current job? I just don't get it... [/QUOTE

I would gladly be a teacher if there weren't any kids involved. And, I am not currently busting my arse and avoid any situations that might change the status quo.

[pwd72s]

Originally posted by berettafan
My wife earned $38k last year as a teacher. She spends, on average, 10hrs/week at home grading papers because her 'planning' time at school is being chewed up by bull**** 'no child left behind' projects. She has a masters degree and does several continuing ed programs every year on top of this.

To put that $38k in perspective the average 3br, 2ba w/ garage home in our county would cost in the neighborhood of $400,000.

She is forced to be polite when uneducated pigs tell her 'my baby dont take no **** from no teacher'. She is told that passing a state test is priority # 1 and any area of academics not covered on that test is unimportant.

She is told she must put up with kids when they mouth off in class and make threats to her well being under their breath. Sure, she can send them to the office where an administrator will say 'shame on you' and send them right back (if they want to keep their job they will anyways).

She is told that firing a bb gun on a bus is not really a problem and she will need to tolerate that child because nobody wants to deal with the parent if the kid is expelled.

She has to listen to clueless politicians tell her (and every other teacher in the US) that it is her fault kids are not making it in school today. Parents, in a teachers world, are not responsible for their children. At least that's the way 'no child left behind' sees it.

I'll be the first to admit those 2 months off in summer are right nice, but then again we'll be visiting Disney in the heart of August because she can not take time off as she chooses.

Overpaid? Nope.

My heart is bleeding and my knee is jerking!

[berettafan]

Originally posted by pwd72s
My heart is bleeding and my knee is jerking!

Sounds like trouble! Quick sign the title on your car over to me before you call the paramedics!

[pwd72s]

Originally posted by nostatic
then y'all should go teach.

Cush job, high pay, low hours. Why in the world aren't all of you teachers? And don't use the, "don't want other teachers for colleagues" excuse, as soon all your buddies would move into this year-round vacation. Why bust your arse at your current job? I just don't get it...

On the flipside, why isn't there a mass exodus of teachers for the higher paying corporate jobs they claim they could easily get???

C'mon, I thought you were better than that...this is just spouting the NEA propaganda line. If you're going to do that, don't forget to blame the parents...

VOUCHERS folks, we need VOUCHERS. It's time that Milton Friedman's brilliant plan became reality throughout the USA. It was worked beautifully in any location that has tried it. Competition and choice is better than a government monopoly.