You are comparing apples and oranges. Yes, in the large scale, your numbers are true. But, in the case of the very small project, like the bookcase, it's all labor and little material.

I've got the helmet on. I've got 37 years in the business and met all types of people on both sides of the contract. I've been a super and I've driven nails on a framing crew. Mostly, I've been self employed doing specialized projects. For a time, I owned and operated a pre-hang door shop specializing in French door sets. I've worked commercial from restaurants to classrooms and done 1000's of residential projects.

I'm well trained and equipped to do many trades including, but not limited to, carpentry, painting, electrical, plumbing, tile setting, plaster and drywall. I can lay floors of most types and roof if I have to.

If you want to debate construction, bring your lunch and dinner. I don't care what you administrate. My grandfather told me that to properly run a company, you have to be able to sit in anyone's chair and do that job. I can do that in any construction company, in any capacity.

Maybe this is not the point, but if you want to drive nails with me, I'll drive you home. If you want to roll or spray a few gallons of paint with me, I'll paint you into a corner. I'll tile your shower before you can float it. And so on. And I'll put my money where my mouth is.

Your ball.

there's more......
 

Nearly 40 % of my income goes to taxes. It starts with 14+% self employment tax (Social Security) and then the Fed tax and then the STATE taxes. It costs towards $12,000/yr. for a decent PPO health policy for a couple of 60 YO empty nesters.

I can't really seem to get wages that would actually provide the 30 dollars an hour to live on. When I tell people that the rate is $45, I see what they are thinking in their eyes, if not out of their mouths.

Cheap bastards.

These days, I average 20 hours a week. Yes, if I dropped to $25, I would probably see 40 hours, but drive a lot more. There's a hundred bucks difference.

No, people would rather hire someone off the corner next to the Home Defect that lives with 7 others in a one room hovel for 12 bucks. Or worse, hire a contractor that exploits this situation.

Cheap bastards.

I've lived a hard life. Back in the painting days, I used to bounce bennies off the wall and catch them in my mouth just to keep a job. I would have to run 50 gallons a day on walls in tracts with just a 4" brush and a 9" roller. Or 120 gallons a day with a gun. As Bob Seegar wrote,

"Stood there boldly
Sweatin in the sun
Felt like a million
Felt like number one
The height of summer
Id never felt that strong
Like a rock

I was eighteen
Didnt have a care
Working for peanuts
Not a dime to spare
But I was lean and
Solid everywhere
Like a rock

My hands were steady
My eyes were clear and bright
My walk had purpose
My steps were quick and light
And I held firmly
To what I felt was right
Like a rock

Like a rock, I was strong as I could be
Like a rock, nothin ever got to me
Like a rock, I was something to see
Like a rock

And I stood arrow straight
Unencumbered by the weight
Of all these hustlers and their schemes
I stood proud, I stood tall
High above it all
I still believed in my dreams

........."

I weigh 172 today on a 6' frame, I weighed 165 [/i]then.[/i]


I've paid my dues. When people want to discuss the state of the construction business with me, they need to bring their credentials to the table. I don't have a modicum of respect for anything less than where my standards are set.

And I hate cheap basdards.

[/rant] (maybe)

Here in the NY/NJ area, labor is 3/4 of the total cost of a job.

milt...............I feel your pain, been there and done that.

I got out of the hammer and nail trade 25 yrs ago, best damn thing I ever done, period. Now at 58 my body is thanking me for the move.

I miss building with a passion, love creating something from nothing. I guess my current house that I designed and built while doing my practice 22 yrs ago is still a work in progress. I can't afford to buy my house at current rates and I can't afford to get rid of it.

People still ask me to do stuff for them and I just laugh and tell them you can't afford me. The only consulation I have these days is that I am still building one hell of a custom house. I am now into the furniture building phase which should last for a long time since I have 3 children now moved out and getting their own houses and wanting stuff from dad.

Here is a true story...when I started in the construction field I worked for a contractor that got the job and I did it, alot of remodels, bedrooms in attics, porches, etc. Great money at the time, always at least 100 bucks a day, this is the mid 70's and life was good. The contractor guy always told me that if you make 100 bucks a day life would be good. I have to laugh now cuz 100 bucks a day you would be starving. To have the same lifestyle then now you would have to make 100 per hour.

Milt, I wish you the best. Maybe Motion is right... move upmarket.

We have a local dude who fought it out like you for years, and became increasingly disgruntled by the cheapskates and corner-cutters. His response; he upped his rates and started refusing jobs... only taking ones that showcased his skills. He nearly starved for 5 years, but now he turns down work and has a crew of 3 great guys. When you have work done by him, you brag about it at dinner parties. He is booked 18 months out... strictly renovations & finish carpentry. He doesn't make a killing, but a good living and enough to hire other people who take pride in their work.

Take it for what it is, different country, different economy and no $6/hr mexican labor. But 15 yrs ago the demand for contractors & finish carpenters in Butt###k New Brunswick would have been as bad or worse, everyone told this guy he was going to starve.

'nuff said, Milt. I'm not going to step into the ring against a 250-lb bruiser like yourself, nor would I be inclined. Quite frankly, I'm not sure anybody has more respect for craftsmen than I do. And I also don't lack respect for their employers, either. I do understand what it costs to get a job done right, including taxes, materials, administrative, overhead, yadda yadda. I understand, for example, that it's cheaper to use a good contractor and do it right the first time, on time, for the agreed amount, than to use a cheap contractor. Unfortunately, I am in the public works industry and we are basically required to award contracts to the lowest bidder. Often times that works out fine. Sometimes not.

In addition to business contacts, I have actual personal friends who are trade guys. My age (49). Again, 'nuff said.

Interestingly, when I worked at the local Labor department I made lots of speeches and public presentations. Workshops, seminars, whatever. I sometimes had a heckler in the audience. I always hoped for one. My job was to protect working men and women, and still is. The hecklers were conservative blowhard that do not believe construction people deserve decent pay. The idiot's view of construction is that it's all unskilled labor. Well, you and I have a very different view. I would point out the skills needed. Apprenticeship programs are four years long because it takes that time to learn the basics of a trade. Construction seasons are 8 months, roughly. After twenty years in a trade, most guys' bodies are DONE. And yet, they must continue to soak their hands in hot water in the morning and head for work. "morning" means 4:00 am. Work might mean hanging steel on the 33rd floor of a building in a howling wind with rain coming in sideways. If someone thinks $30 per hour is too much, I'll have a bit of fun with their ignorance.

Nope, I'm not going to step into the ring with you. For at least a couple of good reasons.

Well, here is your "250# bruiser" at 172 wet (black jacket).

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1164319634.jpg

Supe, maybe I singled you out and jumped down your throat. Your initial remarks pissed me off, not that I wasn't predisposed. I don't know that we actually see things all that differently, but we both rise to an occasion, ya think?

I think this thread has been good for airing out what is wrong today. It's one thing to send all of our manufacturing overseas, but it's another to bring "overseas" here to do the work.

I started in the trades after college and some years in the race car industry, because, like in the race car industry, I like to work with my hands. And, just like gatotom says, it can be, and was, very rewarding in many ways, including monetarily.

I just hate to think I've wasted 37 years because I now make a third of what I did (adjusted) and have little for retirement. I know, that is no one's fault but mine. But, I always thought when I got older I would have it like the older guys before me. Not all that wealthy, but stabilized. The last 10 years has ripped all that out from under me. I don't even speak the right language for the trades, now.

So, what am I gonna do? Well stay tuned, I've always managed to land on my feet. I'll figure it out, but not as carpenter/contractor.

You wanna buy some nifty fiberglass parts? Some R hinges? There's always an opportunity for those that seek.

Just don't run me down while I finish up with this construction crap.

Not a chance. No chance I'll be criticising you. I bristled at first also, but only because I misunderstood. Yeah, we're both talking the same language.

You look like a Carpenter. I've got a friend named Dave who usually works with another guy named Bill. If I had a picture of the two of them, I think you would laugh. If you put Bill's face on Dave's body, you'd have Milt.

I think you will land on your feet. I wonder if your extensive construction experience could be put to better use than installing fasteners. Quite frankly, while construction skills and talent and a willingness to get the job done for the Superintendent is the most crucial element, another huge predictor of project success is management. Can they make a complete plan and execute that plan. Assuming that two companies both respect trades folks and treat them accordingly, the thing that separates the men from the boys is administration/planning/management. Everybody pays $xx.xx in wages. Everybody pays $xx.xx per board foot. Not everybody knows what's going to happen on the project site two Thursdays from now at 9:30 am. There's lots of money in construction, and getting the job done right is WAY WAY cheaper than hiring the Bozos.

as a finished tradesman, the biggest problem is getting on the level of each and every homeowner, once you're there, every job is the same

I'll think about it. When I was a superintendent, a lot of the tradesmen were older than me. We got along because I respected them. Nowadays, the young do not pay me any of that respect. Same in construction management. Most construction managers are degreed these days. They don't need to listen to some stinkin' old man, they gots a sheepskin that tells them right there on the wall that they are smart and clever enough.

Like an old electrician told me one time while looking at some reflected ceiling plans, "Well that row is in space somewhere. If that's where they want 'em, that's were we'll put 'em."

It took "the brains" a half a day to figure out why there was no ceiling where there were fixtures shown. I just laughed my ass off the whole time because I knew the old timer was dead on.

Say it again. I think I know what you mean. It's about the "education," right?

Isn't that a bit like saying, "You look like a Porsche owner," or "You look like a drummer"?? ;) :D

Yep. In my house, I insist that they not be "on level" at all... in the literal sense. I have a great little old home... I had a guy build me some shelves and a built-in. He made it level, and now the rest of the house looks crooked (it is).:p

Now I don't allow levels in my house. They are my sworn enemy.

Can't use a level on a boat. But, you can use a square. :D

I have seen some hand carved doors from Ghana as well....You can supply a diagram (If you are a doctor or attorney, or a religious theme) and the door, delivered is about 3 grand.

Lee....Nice cabinets. I built something quite similar, but then again with certain exclusions, I have built a lot of our furniture..entertaiment centers, desks, hutches, etc. Enjoyable and saves a lot of money. I keep asking myself how I ever found time to be in an office 8 to 10 hours a day!!

it's the inability to visualize ;)

I have a question:

My neighbor is having his kitchen cabinets resurfaced. The tech is installing thin luan mahogony and then an oak veneer. I have built kitchen cabinets and even redone a few for friends. I build a new total faceframe out of (if that's what they want) oak, remove the old painted 16x face frame, install with pocket screws. Neat and it seems, after watching the fella next door, just as quick.

Any experience here? milt?

Never built a new face frame for old boxes, but I don't see why not. The resurface deal is a bt of a joke, especially going from painted to stain. The other way around makes more sense. Of course, stain to stain would require only new doors unless going form dark to light. I've refinished a few kitchens and it's a lot of work. New doors makes things pretty easy and is cost effective.

I can make raised panel doors, but I find buying them from ameradoor is a lot more efficient and actually saves money. If I make them, it is just for the practice.

Ah, yes!

We built some partion walls for a guy once and he came in, walked around and then told us to move them. I said that the plans that he approved, as well as the city, placed them where we had them. He said he didn't care, he couldn't "feel" the plans. Oh well, it was T&M, but still, what a PITA.

I just built all of these cabinets and flat panel doors and made some old time crown not sold anymore to match the rest of my 1930's kitchen. Glass is to be installed in the doors above the old Wolf range.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1170902301.jpg

Pardon the mess. We just finished cooking dinner.