I Want Everyone to Read This
 

I decided on a new Thread because I didn't want these numbers to be lost in my "When America Went Wrong" Thread. I intended that Thread to be about Fiscal Policy and not about Politics persay.

To recap in as few words as possible it was under the Johnson Administration that America entered into a "Guns and Butter" fiscal policy. That the funds Social Security took in were a seperate account, a Savings Account as it were, and that Johnson started using them in the Genral Fund and placing IOUs in the account.

Well today the the OMB says that Social Security is UNDERFUNDED by .......$15 TRILLION.....$15,000,000,000,000.00

Today the OMB says Medicare is UNDERFUNDED by...... $71 TRILLION... $71,000,000,000,000.00

Thats $86,000,000,000,000.00..... $86 TRILLION in UNFUNDED Obligations that the US Government has towards its citizens in the coming decades.

As a point of comparison this years Budget is slated at $2.9 Trillion or.....$2,900,000,000,000.00


That is what your Government has done for U.

BTW: My source for these figures is Robert Porter head of the Office of Management & Budget...

I love you tabs your my hero

I read it TABS.

Is this a Porsche site or a Political Ranting site?

OT is every which way but loose.

This is Off Topic, hence any mention of Porsche does not belong here. Therefore, your post is irrelevant.... and so is this one. ;)

so what's your point?

The point is the US is 'UPSIDE DOWN'. We owe more than the country is worth.....

I went to the US treasury site and got the data to update my national debt graph. Here's the latest:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1171028038.jpg

I would be happy to have just a very small percentage of that.

No matter how many zeros you put down as an "obligation," it doesn't change the reality that there will likely only be enough money to pay out a small fraction of that. And when that happens? When the retirement age goes up and the benefits come down? You can either fire up your motorized wheelchair and drive at 1.5mph to Washington to protest, or you can enjoy the comfortable life YOU've built for YOURSELF.

So don't wring your hands and say, "what will the country do?" Instead wring your hands and remind yourself that you'd better get prepared, assuming that you never get one dime of SS or Medicare.

The money you pay into SS and Medicare is just tax for the government to spend. Looking at it any other way is naive.

damn! how are the muslims gonna get good trade in for us then?:rolleyes: no bank will want to finance them

It's okay. Just resort to the typical neocon tactic of screaming loudly and wailing about how much we love our children and how we need to do everything that's in the best interest of the next generation.

Then send them the bill. It's their problem.

Urrr I thought Medicare and Social Security were Democratic Party creations? The "NEW DEAL"? You know tax the current workers for the current beneficiaries and hope that the number of workers exceed the number of beneficiaries.

If anything, the shortsightedness was to provide medical care. That choice leads to more beneficiaries and is the reason for being upside down financially:rolleyes:

Interesting that shortly after Nixon took us off the gold standard, the funny money debt just exploded upward...

What this is, is an "eye opener" and those of you who did not know this are doomed, as are the rest of us, to pay out the nose for what our Govt has done to us in the last 40 years.

This has to stop and be turned around but the people in power the last two admin's do not have a clue.

You need to open your eyes wake up. If you live in America, its YOUR problem.

BTW, this was started by the Democrats, not conservatives. You can point fingers all you want to or you can buckle under and fix this problem. Getting rid of every one of our elected officials and instituting a term limit is a good start.

You guys are actually counting on getting something back from the government? Money & healthcare when you retire? Give it up, the money is gone, taxing everyone now will not replace the money, you will always be upside down. Plan now, fend for yourselves, there's no deus ex machina coming.

So is funding a war supportive of our troops or not?
Clinton

One hard fact that you CAN extrapolate from those numbers is that the US dollar has nowhere to go but down.

Someone needs to grow the balls to put a bill into motion, which will eliminate social security deductions and let us handle our own money. It's my money, I earned it, I should be able to do what I want with it. BTW, I did not search to see if this has already been done or attempted.

I like the colors


red for high rate debt

blue for moderate to low


any Reaganites here to defend their idol?

Until Johnson in the mid 1960s SS contributions were put into a seperate account. Johnson then started using SS contributtions as General Funds with IOUs in the SS account. This has been a way to disguise the Federal Deficit since that time.

It wasn't designed to be that way Rally. SS is a contract with American workers, it is something they have PAID for. It is no free ride. If U were to take a like amount of money and invest it and get an 8% per year return most workers would have at least hundreds of thousands of $$$ in their accounts, to provide an income stream and to LEAVE TO THEIR HEIRS.

Now the reality is declining benfits.

The last I heard is that anyone now over 50 will get their SS, but after that...its declining benfits time.

THe whole point of this Thread is not just about SS nor about Political campaigns...BUT ABOUT FISCAL MISMANAGMENT BY THE GOVERNMENT..that the USA is a GUNS AND BUTTER ECONOMY. That the people of the US have ignored this mismanagment and have conducted themselves in a like manner. NO Politician is going to tell you to sacrafice one thing over the Iraqi war, or Vietnam war or a war in outer space for that matter, meanwhile your is climbing and your jobs are being outsourced to India, China and the like.

I don't want to call anyone out (yes I do), but everytime I've posted that graph it's stopped all arguement from the right. Anyone want to respond this time?

David,

Do it...

No Congress, no President has been strong enough to stand up to the foreign-controlled Federal Reserve Bank. Yet there is a catch - one that President Kennedy recognized before he was slain - the original deal in 1913 creating the Federal Reserve Bank had a simple backout clause. The investors loaned the United States Government $1 billion. And the backout clause allows the United States to buy out the system for that $1 billion. If the Federal Reserve Bank were demolished and the Congress of the United States took control of the currency, as required in the Constitution, the National Debt would virtually end overnight, and the need for more taxes and even the income tax, itself. Thomas Jefferson was concise in his early warning to the American nation, "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."



Copyright FreeAmerica and Harry V. Martin, 1995

Actually, what tabs is referring too, is out beyond the Debt as depicted in the graph, believe it or not....

If the govt was held to the same accounting standards as a Wall St. Corp, the deficit spending would be closer to 800 Billion, I think. And others put it at closer to 2 TRILLION Dollars every year.

I'll see if I can find the article on it.

So, just so I understand....your government has a liability for each citizen (presuming 300 million people) of $50, 000 for pension and $240,000 for health care.....seems high when one considers the average age is probably in the 30's, what with time value of money etc.

It'd be interesting to see the math that they used to support the numbers....

Dennis

"the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."


Wasn't it Rockefeller that said "we don't use Tanks we use Banks" or something like that....

The value of Gold was pegged at $35 an OZ at the end of WW2, and was slated as the Reserve Currency. The US was using that artifical price to help finance the Vietnam war, Foreign Govts were holding $$ that were in Reality being devalued. When Nixon took the US off the Gold standard in 1973 or so the price went to $110 immediately...that means our currency was worth a 1/3 of what it had previously been pegged at. When the Saudis..OPEC got wind of this they decided to bump the price of their product accordingily. It took awhile for it to all catch up, but that is why U see the hugh rise in debt the Reagan era. I believe Gold went to $600 in this era.. This accompaiied by Congresses refusal to cut or limit spending has snowballed over time, until today 55% of the Budget is now earmarked for what they call "Entitlements" SS again is a CONTRACT which American workers HAVE PAID FOR.


Now if U just want to cal it a TAX then do so, but don't promise something U can't deliver...Again a GUNS AND BUTTER ECONOMY. This has been and is a disingenous way to finance Government spending.

Look at it another way, if its 86 Trillion off books plus 9 Trillion on the books, that 95 Trillion with an annual budget of about 3 trillion (assuming they don't deficit spend). That in a way is a debt ratio of 30 times (assuming the 2.9 Trillion is somehow loosely related to income taxes coming in. That would be like me personally having debt that is 30 times my annual income.

who will pay for the growing debt?
who will benefit from the increased GDP?

Looks to me like the national debt will overtake GDP in the future

As Wayne stated, the national debt as a percentage of GDP is down. It's like comparing the debt of say Starbucks to the debt of a regional coffee house and saying that Starbucks has a lot more debt. Well, that is true but Starbucks also makes a hell of a lot more money. The real question is how much debt do you have compared to what you produce? Thus the debt/GDP ratio.

As far as a fix for social security and Medicare, I would first repeal the prescription drug benefit. Costs way too much. Second, I would allow the SSI deduction to go away in favor of an investment plan in which that money would go into one of several government approved mutual funds and cannot be touched until age 65. This would increase the return over what you get in social security and would provide a massive boost to the US stock market. Yes, I would prefer (in an ideal world) that you could spend that money on whatever you want but the reality is that a very small percentage of people are responsible enough to do that. If you allow them to spend it on DVDs and itunes then you have a bunch of people with no resources and no money in 40 years. Guess who they turn to? The gubmint. You wouldn't be solving anything.

America should do what my ex-wife did. Get married and get a VISA card. It worked great for her.

Oh, wait. That's what we are doing. China will be the Groom.

Nostatic would like that, larger supply of hot asian chicks...

On both the graphs posted, what is defined as "National Debt." Federal only, fed.+ state and local, or what?

I think we'd all like that :D

Re: I Want Everyone to Read This
 

Things started to go wrong long before that, but it is certainly one of the more egregious manifestations of trouble. Our elected leaders just don't get the fact they they are there to represent the best long term interests of the people. They are instead primarily interested in feathering their own nests and getting themselves reelected to keep the party going.

Government should be held to stricter standards of ethics and accounting rather than the laxer standards the the pols have implemented for themselves.

I've preached this for years, we must to get rid of all of the career pols. Get rid of all of the perks that they have voted themselves, get rid of the revolving door between governance and industry.

Most probably deserve a term in jail for their malfeasance as well.

Tabs is showing an extraordinary understanding of the extent of the charade that our so called leaders have pulled off.