CSI "factoid" - gun ident from casing?
 

I can be one of those PIAs that whines about technical veracity (or the lack thereof) in movies - and more particularly TV shows.

Once I get on a theme with a show, like the CSI franchise - I can become obsessive. I'll put up with a lot of crap if the show has other entertainment factors that hold my interest, but I often have to declare a boycott on a series if it starts to drive me completely bonkers.

CSI Miami and NY are examples; the "science" in these shows is too bogus too often and the characters and stories are just too ridiculous to provide any sort of entertainment offset.

But I put up with CSI Vegas in deferrence to the gf (mainly for watching/loving "L" Word with me). Grissom and the lads are reasonably tangible and the story lines don't push the limits as badly as the other two examples.

But guns. I see this kinda thing happen all the time:

One of the CSIs finds a casing - picks it up and declares "45 auto" or "38 wad-cutter" or even identify a particular make or model of weapon.

Is this likely? Are handgun casings that unique that you can actually tell whether a gun is an "auto" or a Ruger, or know even the type of bullet (eg hollow point)?

Re: CSI "factoid" - gun ident from casing?
 

CSI uses "lying via 'some' truth" as a stage prop.

For example, pistols with separate barrels simply require a barrel change, and polishing of the bolt face (or slide face) and a few other items to remove identifying characteristics. There are some rare exceptions, the grooved chamber of H & K rifles for example.

Of course, shotguns don't leave ID marks on the pellets, and high velocity rifle projectiles usually don't either.

That's what makes these state ID via shell casing programs absolute BS designed to make gun ownership more difficult for the lawabiding. They're not for crime reduction.

I don't know about the gun / bullet thing but there is a weatherman in Indianapolis that can identify any car just by the sound of it's horn. No lie - he is amazing.

Maybe one of the cops on the board can answer these questions as well:

1) Do CSI staff get that involved with a crime and actively pursue the perp? Cain et al always seem to be Johnny-on-the-spot when it comes to snagging these bad guys.

2) Why do they use there flashlights so often? Why not turn on the lights - heck, bring in some floods and really get a good look at the crime scene.

Normally in every lab they are supposed to wear eye protection reguardless as well as pulling their hair back at least.

I have spent my fair share in labs of all sorts except crime labs. I always wondered why hot, smart babes were not around. Come to find out, all the hot, smart babes with an interest in science all work in the crime labs.

I could be slightly off since I am no expert on forensics, but these are my thoughts:

I don't know of any way to tell if a .38 was packed with a round nose, wadcutter, hollow point, etc. The case is just a case.

As for a semi-auto, the way the rim is made is often an indicator (but there are exceptions) and you can sometimes see the extractor mark on the case after firing.

As for knowing if the round was fired in a Thompson 45 vs. a Colt 45, you probably wouldn't know it casually - if at all. Unless there is a distinct feature about one's firing pin.

I can usually pick up 7.62x39 brass and tell you if it was fired in an SKS, simply because SKS has a crappy stamped metal firing pin that leaves a distinct mark.... which can be eliminated if it was modified/upgraded.

Some rounds are unique to the type firearms that use them. The 7.62x25 comes to mind. It was used in only a few types of communist block pistols, narrowing down your choices a lot. You could never look at these and say, "I think these came from a Browning automatic."

all shells are id'ed on base of shell casing. 9mm-.45, .357 etc. .308. as far as what gun? give me a break!!! the only gun i can possibly id shells from would be belt fed, by the links, and as pat mentioned, on the hk 91-93-94 series semi-autos and full autos and hk's semi hunting rifles (SL-series). this is due to unique roller blow back that STRIATES SHELLS FROM NECK TO BASE!

other than that you would be psychic if you could tell me if a .45 casing or 9mm or any casing came from a particular brand/model of gun!

Bullet/barrel ID is BS. They deform on impact. Hollowpoints really deform.

I remember a Dirty Harry movie where he digs a bullet out of a wooden post and then does a ballistic match. Yeah right.

Casings. You can tell the cartridge/caliber type, since it is marked on the bottom. It will not tell you what fired it, unless it is a fairly unique caliber.

Casing marking from the extractor on the out side/firing pin marks. This is a slight possibility, but 10 seconds with a file, and the marks will be different.

And finally, remember, revolvers don't leave casings behind, only automatics.

I dunno about that Charles. Extractors do leave marks on casings and they are very distinguishable under a microscope. Now, if the casing has been reloaded a few times, then it would be pretty tough, since there would be multiple extractor marks on it. And extractors do wear down, both in springiness and in lost surface area. I've recently replaced the extractor in my SIG P220 after about 11k rounds and 10 yrs. But brand new factory ammo would probably be pretty identifiable. Now, I'm pretty sure some of my guns are customized way beyond any hint of factory specs, so that a ballistics expert would only be able to match casing and gun if he also had the gun.

The wife of one of my coworkers worked in the Atlanta crime lab and now works in the lab here in Houston. She hates the CSI shows because they are so unrealistic. I've also read an article where National Geographic interviewed some CSI type folks who also hated the show.

From my buddies wife. The people that work in the lab, always work in the lab. They don't collect evidence, there are people in the field who are cops that do that. She works specifically with chemicals, for instance, she can take a paint chip from a car and tell you the make, year, original or repaint, etc.... She never works with blood or DNA, they have another group that does that. So the various people are specialized in what they do and don't generally collect and analyze evidence as well as interogate suspects.

In the national geographic article they said that they aren't that well trained, they don't have the fancy equipment because the budgets can't afford it, and the tests results don't get returned that quickly.

how many people change extractors to after market. that would confound the issue further. as well as revolver vs. semi. hollywood tends to glamorize things beyond reality. some of the cops in my classes last year commented they wished they had a crime lab..............at all!!!!

most counties in az. send all data/pics/evidence to DPS in phoenix in hopes of gathering leads. counties way underfunded for BIG TIME MIAMI MICE CSI LABS! its a shame, as many crimes go unsolved or languish for along time in some "in " basket.

but by god they'll spend BIG BUCKS ON PHOTO RADAR!

Steve, is she hot?

I have dozens of recovered handgun bullets from various media. Snow banks, oiled sawdust, wet newspaper, even ballistic gellatin. I have recoverd some from snowbanks after they went through bowling pins, coffee cans full of water, and other such targets. I have several handgun bullets recovered from game, although they usually go all the way through.

Most of these bullets I could reload and fire again. The only marks on them are from the rifling, or maybe a slight scuff on the nose. Granted, 90% of what I shoot are my own hard cast lead, but I have a pretty good collection of jacketed soft and hollow points as well. Most of you would be absolutely amazed at how little these expand at handgun velocities, especially "standard" velocities from 9mm, .45 ACP, .38 Special, etc. Even the hot magnums won't expand many of them very much at all. The most frangible hollowpoints I have ever tried, the 200 grain hollowpoint Speer "flying ash tray", still left 2/3 of the shank intact behind the mushroomed nose. Plenty left to tell where it came from.

About the only bullets that come apart thoroughly enough to be unrecognizeable are the high velocity rifle bullets intended for varmint shooting. I've opened up coyotes hit by a 60 grain V-Max starting from my .220 Swift at almost 3,800 fps; there is an entry but no exit wound. There is no bullet inside either; just lead and copper crumbs. Those are the only bullets I have seen personally that could not be identified after the fact.

Here is another semi-related TV/movie thing that drives me nuts...

I have seen a lot of car wrecks; on the street, in actual video and on the race track. They don't seem to explode in a ball of fire every time. But when they sure see to in Hollywood. A fender bender sends up a mushroom cloud of smoke and flames that can be seen for miles....And it happends within a millisecond of contact.

Can't stand CSI. Dumbed down fantasy. I saw one full episode and the dimwits claimed the bbl from a Glock had been changed so as to fool investigators. Guess noone on the show ever looked at a Glock as they would have noticed the sn on the bbl.

.45 isn't just .45; it's also labeled as 'ACP' as there is more than one .45 round available (.45 long colt for example). One could pick up a casing and simply read .45 auto. DOES NOT mean it was fired from an auto though.

Here's one for the gun nuts; i recently saw some tv show (can't recall what though) where the murder weapon was claimed to be a .45 Beretta. Who gets paid to check this stuff? God bless Tom Clancy I say. Apparently he was the last 'entertainer' to give two ****s about accuracy.

There is a popular author (name escapes me but he wrote kiss the girls and such) who is an absolute buffoon when it comes to technical accuracy. Lines like 'unclicked the safety on my Glock' are throughout his work. I believe he also got motorcycle controls mixed up as well!

Erik

BTW, does anybody elses wife absolutely hate it when you rant about this stuff in the middle of a movie?

Concur with you Berettafan. But what really gets under my skin is all the movie posters and DVD covers with photos of the main characters holding guns in ways no real person ever holds a gun. I mean, how ridiculous does Pamela Anderson look holding a Desert Eagle? Even the Lethal Weapon movies have stupid shots of Mel holding a Berreta with his finger on the trigger. Who poses for pictures with their finger on the trigger and the gun across their chest?

off thread I have the same issue when they show the innards of airplanes or submarines.

How's this for Hollywood!http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1171484703.jpg

Hollywood always screws up...

the "Glock 7" from Die Hard? All ceramic and non metal detectable?

And there is a Beretta 45 - the 8045 Cougar :) I loved that gun..

Dammit i went through the ENTIRE catalog to check that out! ***** it sucks being wrong! Maybe no longer in production? Not that it changes me being wrong but.........ah damn who am i kidding, i'm a failure (goes off in a fit of tears and locks self in bathroom)

My 8045 shot well, it was bulky with only 8 rounds though. Found myself using it for target practice vs. carry, so I opted for something smaller.

I recently drank the Kool Aid and I carry Glock branded tupperware... albeit a 27 with an heavily extended grip..

rjp

More Retards down the Stairs
 

Charles and a couple of U Boyz got it 1/2 right. Actually from a Shell Casing you can determine the EXACT gun that fired it. Simply each extractor and Firing Pin leave unique marks on a Shell Casing the same as each persons Finger Prints ar unique to that indivdual. However this is only discernable under microscope.

Several years back the National Park service compared Shells Casings found at the Battle of the LIttle Big Horn and compared them to Shell Casing that were taken from various guns that were suspected to have been at the Battle. To date they have identified 15 guns that were at the Battle. Three of the Guns that were in a Private Collection were sold at auction, selling for just over $1M. At the time the Winchester 66 that was sold, made a World Record for a Winchester...$687,000.00.

That's good news. I have a real and excellent condition 1866 Winchester .44 carbine coming my way as soon as my folks move to their beach house next year. I hope I can afford the insurance.

Tabs i saw a very cool show on History Channel (i think it was anyways) where they detailed the work behind what you're talking about. Really very cool to have such a good idea of what really happened there.

Ah, the famous Birdman Weaspons Systems, I miss that web site. That poster is hardly the tip of the iceberg of that vanished site. The coolest was the personal .50BMG caliber handgun with nuclear projectiles, complete with testing video. Too much.:D

Found it!

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Q_XX2lIT1tQ"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Q_XX2lIT1tQ" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

As far as I know, long, long time ago (probably still the case today) some/most manufacturers in Europe use to shoot several rounds (up to five) from EACH handgun produced and provide the ballistics information to the Police/Interpol. Not too difficult to difficult to track with that data (probably to the batch level) but nothing that a file cannot defeat.

Funny. I had my P-40/P-11 nickle plated for rust protection. There was a little too much plating and the rounds would not feed into the extractor. A point file opened up the passage, just fine.

FastPat - that was a funny vid - it would have really been cool if they table flipped over as well as the guys. Thats is one heck of a handgun though - was that really a .50?

i like seeing the trapdoor springfields that have been converted to everything from a pirate's flintlock pistol to daniel boone's kentucky long rifle.
or how about winchester mod. 92s and colt ssa revolvers in movies set around the time of the civil war ? or the same report from pistols and rifles. and don't get me started about ricochet noises.
and saving the best for last, squealing and screeching tires on dirt roads. i wonder what's on tonight?

That is funny!

Re: CSI "factoid" - gun ident from casing?
 

I've never watched CSI, but one can clearly identify a lot about the firearm from looking at just a shell casing, sometimes even the make or model -- but that would be difficult in most cases.

You can usually tell that a case was from an "auto" simply because it is there -- it's been ejected from the gun. Specific rounds are designed for autos, but you can't always know that it was fired from an auto. For example, I have a revolver that shoots 9mm auto rounds and one that shoot .32 auto rounds. And there are some autos that are designed to shoot ammunition typically used in revolvers.

The firing pin mark left in the primer can sometimes identify the manufacturer.

The bullet type would be more an "educated guess" based upon knowledge about how specific manufacturers load their cases, rather than something that could be told from just examining the physical (empty) shell casing.

Examining a recovered bullet can tell you a lot since specific types of rifling used by different manufacturers in their barrels can be identified by the marks left on the bullets.

And of course everyone knows that microscopic identification of a good condition, recovered bullet or shell casing can connect a specific firearm to the specific ammunition components -- assuming there have been no modifications or "wear" to interfere with that identification.

I still wonder why nobody's come up with caseless ammunition.

Maybe I didn't hear the lines right, but I coulda sworn that the latest "CSI Miami" had the lab workers talking of a Ruger 10/22 rifle that handled .223 ammo.... anybody else catch that one?

There are actually several caseless rounds in use today. I don't follow this new wiz-bang stuff all that much, but I do recall some European manufacturers developing something for their militaries. I think Steyr might be one. There are supposed to be advantages in military applications in that a fired case does not need to be extracted from the chamber, so the cyclic rate can be increased.

A couple of my pet peeves, or actually the same one with different guns, is the constant racking of slides and pumping of shotguns. Guy is going into a threatening situation with an empty chamber, and has to chamber a round just before shooting? Talk about a tactical blunder. Oh well.

Or how about the two minute drag races, with more lead changes than NASCAR, and the 30-some-odd-speed gearboxes?

H & K has such a rifle. It's never caught on to my knowledge, military only though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_&_Koch_G11

tabs is correct in that the exact firearm can be determined by the casing. The extractor and firing pin leave unique markings on the casings. Also, the rifling in the barrel can be used to determine the weapon as well. The twist and spacing are different for different types of weapons. Most of this takes microscopes to determine though.

As for evidence collection, cops usually collect the evidence at the scene unless it is a homicide. In those cases, CSI people come out and collect it and take the photos. As far as investigations go, the cops handle all of that, not the CSI (usually non-peace officers).

I do not like to watch cops shows for the most part. They are completely wrong and exaggerated in most senses.

David

Rick Lee....don't plan on retiring on that Winchester 66...UNLESS you can PROVE that it was at the Battle of the LIttle Big Horn. The National Park Service won't test anymore guns for love nor money. I have met the owner of the 3 guns that sold at auction. He has written a book on the battle, which shows his 30 year collection of memorabilia as well as significant pieces in museums and other known collections. The title of the book is "The Life and Times of George Armstrong Custer." In the last chapter of the book he shows the 15 rifles that have been proven to be there.

I have a connection to the research done on the battle because I own a rifle that belonged to one of the 7th Calvary Troopers who not only survived with Reno-Benteen but received the Congressional Medal of Honor for Bravery at the fight.

No, I know it's not one of those rifles. But it's still a nice gun for hanging on the wall and might bring enough to finance a decent class III toy for me.

Picture 0f the Otto Voit Rifle
 

Otto Voit joined the 7th Calvary upon its formation in 1866 and retired as a Sgt in 1895. As a member of Co H he was at the Battle of the Wa*****a 1868, Yellowstone Expedition 1874, Black Hills Expedition 1875, Battle of the Little Big Horn 1876, Canyon Creek (Nez Pearce) 1877, White Clay Creek (Wounded Knee) 1890, and finally in the AZ Territory chasing renegade Apaches in the mid 1890s. Retiring to Louisville, Ky until his death in 1906 at age 65.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1171513526.jpg

Now if I could only tie this rifle to the Big Horn it most likely would be worth 7 figures. As it would be the only weapon that could be tied not only to a survivor but a Medal of Honor receipiant as well.

Are you sure you didn't build that from a kit?

Unless it's a magazine fed revolver.

Aside from firearm silliness the level of computer imaging technology is pretty comical as well.

One episode had them blowing up a tiny reflection in a mirror that was caught on video tape. From this tiny, grainy image they blew up and enhanced it to a high res pic.....unreal. Then of course they can run it through one of their databases to get an ID.....lol.