how having a clean carfax HURTS

[blucille]

So, 3 years ago, we bought a Saab 2002 9-5 aero, with only 11,000 miles, very clean, I had no complaints. I knew it had a tough life in Boston, had some dings and dents, and had some paint-work on the passenger's side, but it was all minor.

Just last week, my wife and I start talking about upgrading it, we head off to the dealer, about to do a trade-in, they tell us book value on the car is $9000, but once the carfax comes back, they offer us $6000. Yup, $6000. This is a 2002 9-5 aero, very clean, no damage, and only 40,000 miles.

The carfax was clean when we bought the car, now it lists "frame damage" back in 2003, before our purchase.

So, since the report was clean when we bought it, we paid full retail. We did no harm to the car during the past 30,000 miles, and now, we can't even get a reasonable trade-in value, because carfax has data now that they did not before.

Carfax (who has NO telephone number for these types of complaints) says that their buyback guarantee did not apply back then, and the only guarantee they did have at the time was if the title was branded (theft recovery, flood damage or a totaled vehicle) and carfax did not report this.

My statement after all of this is that carfax is Useless....it actually can have a negative affect on you.

-Lewis

[Zeke]

Good report. I have always performed my own "carfax," but one can't do that if you're buying a car from a distant location, or most of the time, a dealer. However, you could persuade a dealer to put a car on the lift so you could take a look.

Of course, trading in is not going to net you the best money. I'd try that carfax again on your own and see what it says. Wouldn't it be great if you caught the dealer in a shenanigan?

[Emission]

Was the original purchase private party or dealer? Was the car misrepresented?

Unfortunately, a long time has passed... but your point is very legitimate.

[Noah930]

First, I'd double check to make sure the recent CarFax actually shows what the dealer alledges. That being said, how does something like this happen? How long does it take for a "bad thing" to show up on a CarFax? And who reports it? The insurance company? DMV?

In your case, when did the car sustain the "frame damage?" And when did you run the CarFax before you bought the car? What was the timespan between those 2 events?

[TSNAPCRACKLEPOP]

contact the previous owner, ask if it was properly repaired. should be a record. who did the work?

[Moneyguy1]

Carfax has limited value. If damage has been repaire without being reported it isn't (obviously!!) listed.

I once did some work on a car with a "clean" carfax. The car was white, nice paint. When the inside LH door panel was removed (to fix the electric window) lo and behold, the hidden part of the door was BROWN!! No listing of damage on the Carfax.

Caveat Emptor.

[john70t]

This is a goood analogy to the "tiered" internet (pay per view) that phone company monopolies(!) like ATT have recently tried to put through legislation.

One person receives a set of information, while another person (who pays more) receives different information.

Would you trust a corporation any more than a career crimminal?

[Big Ed]

I know this is not at all relevant to the point you are making, but...

Even with the carfax ding, you should be able to do much better than that. I sold my wife's '02 9-5 Aero last march for $12,000 and it had 95,000 miles and tons of parking lot dings (she worked in a mall).

With 40,000 miles, it'll sell easily on autotrader or ebay.

[sithot]

Somebody ratted you out after the fact. CARFAX asks for information on their website regarding any car someone does a search on. Maybe the previous owner, maybe the insurance company who fixed it.

I've found plenty of things wrong with cars using CARFAX but then again don't always believe everything you read.

I found a 2 owner car that had been to Puerto Rico and back! This particular CARFAX find was written up and sent to an auto writer to study:

It's always "the money". Morals, self discipline, honesty and all the other things we used to hold dear have gone the way of the Do-Do Bird.

There are more shady car brokers now than any time I can recall. Of course every generation had their share but today I am fairly disgusted with the industry as a whole.

Along this line I recently tested a used dealer to see how the Federal Truth in Mileage Act works.

Vehicles Exempt From the Odometer Disclosure Requirements of the Federal Truth in Mileage Act
The following vehicles are exempt from the odometer disclosure requirements of the Federal Truth in Mileage Act of 1986:

In most states, CA included if:

Vehicles ten-model years (10) old or older (e.g. Current calendar year minus ten (10) equals the first year model exempt.) In the calendar year 2003, 1993 and older year model vehicles are exempt. In calendar year 2004, 1994 and older year model vehicles will be exempt.

So in theory a 1997 Porsche is now exempt. Thank goodness for CARFAX.

I determined that a vehicle that I had researched on the "Trader On Line" website was the very obvious target of odometer fraud (although now protected by law). Subscribing to CARFAX is a great way to build information which can empower buyers if used properly along with a thorough inspection. This vehicle had a very good track record of mileage reporting in which it went from around 100,000 all the way to 157,000 before hitting an auction where it came out "the other side" with 67,000 miles which is what the dealer stated on his fact page.

The dealers statement that CARFAX makes mistakes (when I clearly could prove to him that the mileage had been rolled back) was quite entertaining as I was put on hold until they had their story together. I never took an adversarial role, instead advising him that he should "protect himself" by truthfully stating the mileage. In the end he backed up and said they were going to sell it as a total mileage unknown vehicle, or at least that's what he was said to make me go away.

In the end it is up to the consumer to protect his or herself from this kind of behavior. Clearly, dealers now have another "cloak" to hide behind.

Documentation is your ally when buying any used car. I prize documetation above anything else a seller may tell me.


Tom

[blucille]

I am quite certain the damage was minor, but enough to qualify as frame damage. We did get a decent deal on the car, but now are paying the price.

The damage occurred before we bought the car, by a year or more, but was not reported on the carfax from our purchase. Carfax claims that they now have the ability to pull more data from a service called framecheck or something.

SO, in the 3 year period we have had the car, carfax now has more data, data that hurts us directly, because, according to all the info they had 3 years ago, our car was perfect, and now, they can tell us otherwise.

the worst part is that there is no way to discuss this with the folks at carfax, only an email address you can write to, and their replies seem to be a random form letter, no relation to what your actual question is, well, maybe a little. Why should they care, they know that there are enough loop-holes in their system to allow them to escape.

[RallyJon]

I wonder how many people have sued Carfax, or received settlements from them?

Sounds like some sort of promissory estoppel might apply when you rely on their report, then they change it after the fact.

[bell]

i got screwed by a local p-car dealer (cascade porsche/audi....in ohio)
i took them my wheels for mount/balance, not the car....just the wheels.....
when they wrote up the work order someone guessed at my milage (they said they needed to enter milage on all services) and they were about 10,000 miles higher than it was.
so i go get my emmisions checked and they write down actual milage which was lower than what cascade entered in their computer, now the carfax on my targa shows "odometer fraud" which really really pisses me off.
the dealer won't lift a finger to fix their mistake which is in THEIR computer......**** those *******s....**** them up their stupid asses......

carfax is a scam for people who know nothing about cars.....

[SLO-BOB]

Originally posted by bell

when they wrote up the work order someone guessed at my milage (they said they needed to enter milage on all services) and they were about 10,000 miles higher than it was.
so i go get my emmisions checked and they write down actual milage which was lower than what cascade entered in their computer, now the carfax on my targa shows "odometer fraud" which really really pisses me off.

carfax is a scam for people who know nothing about cars.....

Had a similar thing happen. I bought my 964 with 22k miles. The last time Wisconsin DOT checked the car it had 14k miles. For whatever reason, Wisdot reported my car as having 14k miles when I registered it because "it's exempt due to it's age". They default to the last report. Unfortunately, Carfax does not know, or recognize this. So now there is a series of reports up to 22k miles, and then my supposed mileage of 14k miles upon registering it. Naturally red flags go up. Wisdot also managed to interpret my written b-l-u-e as red. So I've got that going for me too.

Now (according to Carfax) I basically have a red car that used to be blue and had it's odometer rolled back.

[Tervuren]

Making older car's odometer exempt makes sense to me, as you can't really trust what it says by that point anyway - think of how many 944's have had their odometer's stop working, and it may go unfixed for a period of time.

I do wonder about one of my cars though if it really is the accurate mileage, I know on my '86, even though it shipped here with a non working odometer, the miles covered would not be over 500-1000 extra.

[SLO-BOB]

Originally posted by Tervuren
Making older car's odometer exempt makes sense to me, as you can't really trust what it says by that point anyway - think of how many 944's have had their odometer's stop working, and it may go unfixed for a period of time.

I understand what you mean about the 944s. It doesn't matter. But we're talking 911s here!

Kidding. But here's the thing - a car that has been exceptionally maintained and has documented low mileage gets a chink in it's armor because the Carfax system and dot system are, at times, incompatible. That is if people let the Carfax report be the deciding factor. I use them as a guide, but documentation and a thorough ppi carry more weight with me.

If the car is mileage exempt, it should just say that. No number at all.

[Basquiat]

I think the dealer is lying his ass off. Pull your own carfax. Do your own homework. If he wasn't lying, sell the car privately. No matter what you'll get screwed on a trade in. If they give you retail, they will turn around and negotiate for nothing under retail. If they give you wholesale, then you only negotitate for below wholesale.
That's the game.

[sithot]

Knowingly misrepresenting a car (to a new buyer) won't help the situation. You just set yourself up for a lawsuit. Bad idea.

Tom

[bell]

Originally posted by sithot
Knowingly misrepresenting a car (to a new buyer) won't help the situation. You just set yourself up for a lawsuit. Bad idea.

Tom

i don't think he meant to misrepresent the car, he means that selling it privately will give a better chance of getting a better asking price.....which is always the case, carfax or not.
dealers make their money on used cars not new ones, which is why they ALWAYS lowball you.....when they have a negative carfax it just puts the ball in their court.

[Basquiat]

Originally posted by sithot
Knowingly misrepresenting a car (to a new buyer) won't help the situation. You just set yourself up for a lawsuit. Bad idea.

Tom

That was a hell of a leap on your part, speaking of bad ideas... Where did I once suggest misrepresenting anything?
He will get a better price in a private sale 9 times out of 10. First he should check CARFAX for himself.

[sithot]

If you read between the lines, although CARFAX has put the current owner of a car in a bad situation he cannot merely walk away from the issue by selling it to someone else when he or she is clearly aware of the problem and is obligated to divulge this infomation to the buyer. Otherwise, there is the distinct possibilty of recission and possible monetary damages.
If you like law suits that's great. If not then tell the truth.


Tom