For discussion... the homosexual debate

[Z-man]

I got an email from my Alma Mater today regarding an uninvited visit from an organization. I've removed my college name / details since it wasn't sent to all the public.

For the record, I went to a Christian College. The students, teachers, and faculty all voluntarily sign an ethos statement where they agree to honor the college's code of conduct and behavior. Being a Christian is not a requirement for the school -- as long as you adhere to the college guidelines while attending the school, anyone can study there. (I would guess that roughly 20% of the students that go there are not Christians.)

So here is the letter in full (only names and dates have been removed.)

Email from my school:
An Open Letter from President ... to the ... College Community
re: Equality Ride’s Visit to [The] College

February 16, 2007

[The] College was recently notified by a national organization named Equality Ride that it plans to visit The school's main] campus on [date removed.] Equality Ride is an organized bus tour of activists, typically college-age, who schedule unsolicited visits to private and religious colleges, universities, and academies that they consider to have policies that create a disparity between treatment of heterosexual and homosexual students. Last year, Equality Riders visited approximately 25 campuses. In March and April of 2007, Equality Ride will visit nearly 40 institutions, including, in addition to [this college], other schools in the Council for Christian Colleges and Universities (CCCU) such as [X] College and [Y] College.

The Equality Ride initiative is sponsored by Soulforce, a national advocacy organization which according to its mission statement seeks “freedom for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people from religious and political oppression through the practice of relentless nonviolent resistance.” In [This college's] case, Equality Ride is protesting the College’s inclusion of homosexual behavior, among other behaviors, as a “sinful practice” in its Community Covenant and student handbook.

It is important for the campus community to understand that [This] College affirms its institutional stance on homosexual behavior, and that we did not invite Equality Ride to visit our campus. Equality Ride did not seek our permission to visit [our school], and based on the organization’s past practice and their communication with us, we know that they are planning to come to campus whether we grant them permission or not. As a Christian institution of higher education, however, we must be willing to address difficult issues through civil debate and discussion. The College is committed to preparing students to think critically about human sexuality from a biblical perspective. For instance, during the past several months, the Division of Student Affairs, in partnership with other campus departments, has been planning a week of educational programming in March which will provide students with a breadth of learning experiences related to a biblical perspective of sexual identity.

Accordingly, the College has decided to respond to Equality Ride’s visit as an opportunity to model gracious Christianity and hospitality to those who express different viewpoints, to encourage meaningful campus conversation about a complex social issue, and to equip students to better understand human sexuality from a biblical perspective. This response, which will take place within a caring Christian educational community, is consistent with [The school's] ethos and heritage, and with our mission to prepare students for lives of service, leadership, and reconciliation in the Church and society.

In preparation for Equality Ride's visit, I have asked [name removed], vice provost/dean of students, and [name removed], director of public relations/special assistant to the president for communication, to co-chair a campus committee of students, faculty, and administrators to coordinate the visit and develop opportunities for educational dialogue. College leadership has already been in conversation with Equality Ride organizers regarding the details of their visit. In order to ensure careful planning, students and employees are asked to forward any requests from Equality Riders to [names removed].

I will continue to keep the [name removed] College community informed about the planning for Equality Ride’s visit. It is my hope that during Equality Ride’s visit all members of the campus community will exhibit maturity of intellect, character, and Christian faith. By modeling gracious and compassionate conversation, [the school] has an opportunity to distinguish itself as an authentically Christian college in the face of challenging circumstances. Obviously, this issue is an extremely difficult and important one, not only for [our school], but for many educational and church communities. As we prepare for Equality Ride’s visit, I invite you to join me in praying for God’s wisdom and guidance.

Personally, I believe that homosexuality is a sin - but it is not the only sin in the world. The Bible clearly states that "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." That means that although I am a Christian, I am not exempt from sinning. And in God's eyes, all sin, no matter how big or how small, has the same result: separation from God. However, I also believe that while God hates sin, He loves the sinner. As such, while God hates homosexuality, He loves the homosexual.

That being said, I feel that this whole Equity Ride campaign is an effort for force homosexual beliefs upon those who do not accept it as a "proper" or "sinless" lifestyle. And that is where I draw the line. No one is forcing the students at my alma mater to sign the ethos statement or to attend there - and despite what some may believe, there are no brainwashing ceremonies or cool-aid events at my school.

Personally, if a homosexual discusses his views with me, I will express my opinion on homosexuality and sin, and do my best to treat him or her like God would. In the past, I've clearly pointed out that I consider myself just as much of a sinner as anyone else. I have never rammed my views down their throats, and would prefer they refrain from doing the same.

So my stance is this: I will do my best to love homosexuals as God loves them. But I feel it is inappropriate for them to want me to embrace their lifestyle.

Thoughts?

-Z-man.

[legion]

You are missing the point Z. It is "diversity" when they are ramming their views down your throat. It is "censorship" when you are expressing your views. Get with the program.

[Jim Richards]

I agree with everything you said, Z-man. I also feel that your Alma Mater has taken a mature approach to this issue.

[VINMAN]

Originally posted by legion
You are missing the point Z. It is "diversity" when they are ramming their views down your throat. It is "censorship" when you are expressing your views. Get with the program.

My thoughts exactly!

[livi]

Please, define 'homosexual behavior' and 'sin' to a non religious guy like me.

[Z-man]

Originally posted by livi
Please, define 'homosexual behavior' and 'sin' to a non religious guy like me.

"Homosexual behavior" or more broadly, "sinful behavior" is acting upon urges that are wrong in God's eyes, or that which is sin.

So what is sin? Anything that separates us from fellowship with God. Some specifics are outlined in the Bible - don't kill, steal, lust, obey your parents...etc. The opposite of sin was defined as: "loving God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and loving your neighbor as yourself." And in the Bible, homosexuality is defined as sin.

But there is a difference between someone who believes they are homosexual, and the homosexual behavior. Put it this way: having an urge to drive 100mph on the highway won't get you a ticket, but actually doing 100mph will.

So what do I offer the homosexual who doesn't want to live in sin? He can't deny his homosexual feelings, but he can abstain from practicing the behavior. Just like I can't deny my desire to sin, but I can do my best to refrain from sinning. (Unfortunately, I'm not always able to refrain...)

-Z

[john70t]

All that talk of ramming it down throats....I dunno

[Jeff Higgins]

I commend your school on its response, and your views could not be better stated. I agree with both whole-heartedly. This is a proper and moral response to the afront of a gay activist visit, and their pending attempt to foist their views upon your alma mater. I can see where your school is attempting to keep it civil and mature. I doubt the activists are capable of such. Let us know how it goes.

[livi]

OK, thanks Z-man.

Makes it very difficult to participate in a debate coming from my non religious perspective.

Are all sins looked upon as equally serious and hence judgment/punishment? Is two men kissing comparable to stealing and killing?

Is everything claimed/interpreted in your Bible a good thing, the truth and something we all should live by? Is that, then, equally true for the Koran? If not, why?

Who gets to decide what is right or wrong? What book? What person/persons?

Again, not trying to be an agnostic ass. Really simply curious.

[kach22i]

Is the Christian College against all sex outside of marriage or just homosexual sex?

Enough with the embracing and ramming talk already.

[cashflyer]

As a "Christian Community College", is it publicly funded?

If it is not publicly funded, then it is a private college and sits on private property - giving them a right to refuse campus access to the "Equality Ride" people.

Regardless of my views on homos, I do not agree with them showing up and crating a disturbance on campus.

[Moneyguy1]

Interesting topic. I have said before that any group, no matter what their agenda, that attempts to force their position or beliefs upon another engages in self delusion and a total lack of 'tolerance'. If, as a Christian (or other faith follower), I believe that certain behavior is "wrong", I have a right to that belief. I wonder if gays and lesbians founded a college, whether they would object to an organization coming in that represented accepted judeao-christian beliefs concerning homosexuality and demanded they be recognized.

Since the school in question is a private institution, they have, in my opinion, a right to their beliefs. Had this been a "public" institution, things might be considered differently.

Z.....I am all for open dialogue, but not with those who challenge the stand of another totally with no hope of compromise or understanding. I applaud your school's tolerance and decorum under this obvious "attack" on their religious stand.

In part, those who fight the hardest for certain causes are the most insecure in their beliefs that their cause is just and are looking for verification and acceptance.

I will not judge the homosexual lifestyle, but do feel that, in nature, it appears to be flawed. Whether is it "genetic" or "choice", makes no difference. It is not the fact that an individual has those tendencies, it is the acting on those tendencies that apparently upsets heteros.

Interesting how our society has changed in the last 30 years or so. If "The Odd Couple" or "Laverne and Shirley" were introduced today, a lot of people would assume the characters were homosexual, simply because two people of the same sex live together.

[Schrup]

My wife & I are sending our son to Christian school this fall. I have been active in church in the past, but got a bit jaded by the constant overbearing money grab from the pulpit.

I don't have a problem with the idea of homosexuality being taught as sin as long as the same emphasis is put on fornication, adultery & divorce. My wife & I have a very dear friend that was a witness at our wedding & is openly gay. We are both open minded & would hope our son would share the same tolerance. In other words, I believe a gay person is no worse than a person who engages in premarital sex in the eyes of God.

I agree with cashflyer, if it's a private school, let them find a public place to make a stand. Are they hitting the military academes as well?

[Z-man]

Originally posted by livi
OK, thanks Z-man.

Makes it very difficult to participate in a debate coming from my non religious perspective.

Are all sins looked upon as equally serious and hence judgment/punishment? Is two men kissing comparable to stealing and killing?

Is everything claimed/interpreted in your Bible a good thing, the truth and something we all should live by? Is that, then, equally true for the Koran? If not, why?

Who gets to decide what is right or wrong? What book? What person/persons?

Again, not trying to be an agnostic ass. Really simply curious.

Livi - no worries - indeed the questions you ask are very much the same questions that I ask - even as a Christian!

On all sin being equal: think of it this way -- if a person cannot swim, does it matter much if he's in 8 feet of water, or 20 feet? Regardless of how deep the water is, he will likely drown. So the end result of sin - any sin, will result in separation from God.

Now to take that concept further - there is a difference between paying for sin/wrong doing and the consequences of sin. The Gospel message states that Christ paid for our sins. So if I accept Christ as the person who pays for my sin, I don't have to worry about being separated from God. But if I sin again my fellow man, though my sin is forgiven in God's eyes, I may have to make restitution on this earth (prison, fines...etc). So while the consequences of certain sins may vary (stealing vs. killing someone have different consequences associated with them), but both will separate the sinner from God.

As far as the Bible being the truth vs. the Koran, or other belief systems -- I believe the Bible is God's word. But that doesn't mean I question it or my Christian faith -- as a matter of fact, I believe it is better to question what I believe than to blindly accept it - that will only bring me closer to the truth. So far, in all my questioning and searching, I have not found anything that can disprove my faith.

-Z

[Overpaid Slacker]

In the last 30 years or so, the "love that dare not speak its name" has become the "love that won't shut the F*CK up about itself."

OTOH, I have no problems with homosexuals qua homosexuals. If, however, they're homosexuals who happen to be overbearing, strident and/or generally annoying, I have a problem with them b/c they're overbearing, strident and/or generally annoying. Like I have a problem with overbearing, strident and/or generally annoying Jesus-freaks.

My point -- don't try to convince me that what you are is OK, b/c what you're doing is annoying me. I don't care to begin with, so STFU and get a job.

JP

[Z-man]

Originally posted by kach22i
Is the Christian College against all sex outside of marriage or just homosexual sex?

My Alma Mater believes that all sex outside of marriage is sin.

And my school is a private school. Students who attend there can receive public government loans, but as far as I know, there is no direct funding from the government given to the school.

Thank you all for your opinions. Appreciate the frank and candid input.

-Zoltan.

[Moneyguy1]

+1, slack....

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally posted by livi
OK, thanks Z-man.

Makes it very difficult to participate in a debate coming from my non religious perspective.

Are all sins looked upon as equally serious and hence judgment/punishment? Is two men kissing comparable to stealing and killing?

All sins are equal in the sight of God. Probably the easiest way to try to put that in perspective is to understand that the real sin is dissobedience. The particular act itself is secondary to that. Defying God's word, no matter how trivial the act, is still defying God's word. When you do so, He decides He would really rather not continue His relationship with you.

Is everything claimed/interpreted in your Bible a good thing, the truth and something we all should live by?

We believe it gives us pretty clear guidlines to live by. Not everything in it is good, however. There are some real horror stories in it.

Is that, then, equally true for the Koran? If not, why?

For its followers, yes; that is equally true of the Quaran.

Who gets to decide what is right or wrong? What book? What person/persons?

In religious matters, that is a deeply personal thing. I think the individual gets to decide for themselves, in as much as they choose to follow God or not, and choose where they think His word is recorded. Having made those choices, the question of right or wrong gets answered for that individual.

In this case, the school has made those decisions. They teach what they believe; that is their right. They are not affecting anyone outside of a community that has adopted a mutually acceptable structure of beliefs. They do not teach violence nor intollerance towards who they perceive as sinners. It sounds like in spite of that, these demonstrators would like to decide for this school what is acceptable for them to both believe and to teach; they want to change their beliefs concerning right and wrong. That is wrong; they have no right to do so.

[stevepaa]

+1 to Paul, and JP, and Jeff

I don't think many homosexuals understand that real Christianity sees him/her separate from any sinful practice. We view fornicators, adulterers, liars, cheats, child molesters, the same as those who participate in homosexual behavior.


All sex outside of marriage between a man and woman is viewed as sinful. This is the Christian view and if the students can maintain this thought in their conversations, they will do well. We certainly had several discussions with non Christians on this, and in the end they go away, sometimes shaking their heads in confusion.

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by Overpaid Slacker
In the last 30 years or so, the "love that dare not speak its name" has become the "love that won't shut the F*CK up about itself."

OTOH, I have no problems with homosexuals qua homosexuals. If, however, they're homosexuals who happen to be overbearing, strident and/or generally annoying, I have a problem with them b/c they're overbearing, strident and/or generally annoying. Like I have a problem with overbearing, strident and/or generally annoying Jesus-freaks.

My point -- don't try to convince me that what you are is OK, b/c what you're doing is annoying me. I don't care to begin with, so STFU and get a job.

JP

+2