That is an excellent point and point of view. I came in on the thing just about when the early cars were really hitting stride on increased value. When I first became cognizant of the '73 Carrera RS being worth over 50K, the tide had turned. All of a sudden lots of clones appeared and some were trailered around, instead of being just driven. If you remember, I never made it past flat black primer.

I was really put off by Wayne's and the magazine's "RS shootout." I know that Wayne had little to do with the organization of the day itself, but I realized right then and there I wasn't a member of the "Gruppe" that went to the race track privately. Those were some nice cars alright, but unattainable for us plebians.

As John Lennon wrote, "I just had to let to go."

Well of course.

But thankfully the engineers at Porsche kept working, producing the 3.o, the 3.2, the 3.6.... else the gruppe would have a real tough time convincing how wonderfully engineered their early cars are.

I, too, found my car long before the long hood craze hit. I broke every rule in the book in buying it as well. The common wisdom at the time was "buy the newest 911 you can afford". Make sure you get a PPI from a knowledgable mechanic. Stay away from the mag case motors, etc. I looked at everything from SC's up to and including 996's; certainly nothing older than an SC. I looked at dozens; took my wife along to look at a few, and my youngest son to look at the rest. Saw some truly outstanding cars.

Then one day, and only "because it was on the way home" from looking at an SC and another Carrera, I stopped to look at my car. Pretty non-descript looking '72 "T", dead stock in every respect. I almost didn't even knock on the door, but I did.

Now I was certainly no "Porsche guy" at that time; I had no experience with them. Oh, I had done all of the research, reading voraciously for years, dreaming of owning one someday. I had built a pretty good feel for what to expect from the dozens I had driven in the preceding months. I was prepared to be thoroughly underwhelmed; it was, after all, "just a 'T'". Any SC, Carrera, 964, 993, or 996 I had driven was certainly a better car in every respect.

Then I drove it. First with its owner along side, then my 12 year old son. It was different, way different. Pretty intangible; almost impossible to describe. I thanked the guy and drove away, neither my son or I talking it up like we had so many others. Halfway home, he turned to me and said "dad, that's the one". I couldn't have agreed more. Then a feeling of cold panic fell over me - what if some one beats me to it? I turned right around and raced back to snatch it up. I need not have worried; turns out he had advertised it for months, slowly dropping the price. No one was interested. It was just an old 911; nothing that special at the time.

Although it had a fresh motor and trans, it needed work. Lots of work. I had no idea where to start. Then I started meeting the local Porsche community; at PCA events, DE's, and what not. Some folks started coming forward to help me with my car. Advice on where to start, and help in actually working on it, getting their hands dirty right there with me. I needed work too; it was clear I had no idea how to drive it. Again, some of the locals helped me with that, both on and off the track. They gave freely of their time, experience, and knowledge; at first to a guy they hardly even knew. We would eventually come to know one another, and I would eventually be invited to join them. Who were these guys? Our local Pac West Chapter of the R Gruppe.

The folks I have met in this club are really what it is all about. The enthusiasm for the older cars holds us together. It's the "personality" of these cars we have all come to like so much. No, they are not the best engineered Porsches. They are not the fastest. They are not the most reliable. They are loud inside, and more often than not smell like oil inside. They are hot in the summer and cold in the winter. They ride very rough and have well-known handling quirks. But they are fun; that's all.

Would folks deride a '55/'56/'57 Chevy club as "exclusive" or "elitist"? Would they complain if they had to actually own a '55/'56/'57 to get in? Would folks feel the need to point out that maybe Chevy has since made better cars? Would folks see them as snobs because they cannot get in with their Camaro? It's just a club; one that is focused on early cars. No different than any other clubs that would like to keep their focus narrow. We like early cars, we like to drive early cars. We like to drive with other early cars; certainly not exclusively, but it is fun to do as a club. Most of us participate in other clubs as well; PCA for one. I'm sure the '55/'56/'57 Chevy guys are members of broader based Chevy clubs but, when they get together as a club focused on those cars, that's what it's all about. No exclusiveness, no elitism. We're the same way. Just a bunch of folks that like the early cars; no more, no less.

Good post and I agree with most of what you say, but I repeat, just the nature of a club is elitist. You say, "Would folks see them as snobs because they cannot get in with their Cameron?" Yes, they would. At any level, any organization has a purpose of bringing people together at specific times for specific reasons. That alone sets that group apart from those that went out grocery shopping that day. The sense of "belonging" to any club suggests to others, "I do and you don't." Not all seem to feel that way individually, but as a group, the emotion occurs. If this were not the case, then when something of the nature of a broader event is attended, the R Gruppe would not have to all park in the same area where others are precluded from doing so. They would park amoungst the general population.

However, I don't see this as all bad. Some people are more club minded than others. I've tried to help out on neighborhood committees and some other endeavors. I always feel that the pace of getting anything done is directly proportionate to the number of people involved.
It becomes worse when there is an established inner circle. And, there is less room for individualism.

Yeah, cuz all those other Porsche guys up in the NW . . . All those other drives and events... Just a buch of hacks that don't understand the true charm of a hopped-up, unburned-hydrocarbon-slinging VW Bettle. :D

Geeze, Jeff, you must have a tough time sleeping at night . .. having a son with an 911SC ! :eek:

Just to bring the rest of you up to speed, island dood is our officially un-official No Gruppe chief photographer. For examples of his in-car work, just check out out PNW regional section on this BBS. Very cool stuff.

The No Gruppe is a Puget Sound area collection of miscreants, ne'er-do-wells, hooligans, and PCA rejects. And I'm damn proud to call them my friends. The very first friends I ever made in the Porsche world are all members of this rag-tag bunch.

Co-founded by rdane, island911, Scooter, Drago, LakeCleEllum, nize, and others too numerous to mention, it is the quintessential non-club. You can't join; there are no members. You can't get kicked out, either. We never meet (although a large number of Porsches show up at the XXX Root Beer drive-in the second Saturday of every month). There are no officers, no dues, no rules, no waivers. The motto, if we actually had one, would be "I would never join a Gruppe that would have a man like me as a member". Our monthly get-togethers, and the ensuing drives, remain the highlight of my month. The fact that a number of us have also become R Gruppe members has not diminished that one little bit.

Looking back, many of the local R Gruppe members first met as No Gruppe regulars. Those that did remain No Gruppe regulars; myself, Alex, Bernie, Brad, the other Brad, Brooke, Chris, Mike, sometimes even Randy, continue to be "active" No Gruppe-ers. I think that's pretty cool.

So, while maybe some of these No Gruppe-ers are a bunch of drooling hacks droning endlessly on about the engineering advances of the SC ;) (hey, I get it at home from Chris now too - have you been coaching him or something?), they're my friends. We really do have one of the best, most active, most enthusiastic bunch of Porsche nuts in the country in this area. PCA, No Gruppe, R Gruppe; I thoroughly enjoy my time with all of them.

Some are PCA members too. :confused:

Talk about an elitist group. Wine and cheese anyone? ;)

Well, it sounds as if the No Gruppe has dodged the elitist bullet. The SOCG (south OC) is much the same.

Don't even get me started on GruppeB. Those guys are crazy! :D

this really should be what it's all about. and i hope it will be. but it's also quite utopian and not *really* adhered to in the 'real world' application. at least not by everyone, though i am certain you're not part of that group.

i say this after seeing rgrupper b1tch and moan ab someone's car that was posted for sale and labelled 'rgruppe car'. then this individual got his panties in a wad and started screaming bloody murder that it ISN"T an rgruppe car :rolleyes:

THAT certainly did not look like "it's ab the people". it became ab cars that are deemed 'worthy' b/c they have thrown gazillion$ of nla/nos parts onto it. that looked like a guy that wipes his car w/ a diaper when his cocooned garage humidity level changes by .5%

i still understand that's not the sentiment of everyone in the club, but i don't get how the club could have "turned" to be that way, or maybe how did it get so that some individuals now perceive it that way.

the scwdp is currently dark but soon you will all rue the day...

scwdp is dead. They never had a chance. :D :D :D

Not a lot of diaper wipin' going on here - XXX No Gruppe January breakfast, Issaquah, WA. Hardy No Gruppe-ers and a couple R Gruppe / No Gruppe-ers braving the snow and cold. I travelled over 30 miles on snowy back roads, along with several others, to get there (mine is the Albert Blue "T" with snow all over it; sitting outside for several weeks while we fixed a broken head stud on my son's SC). The other R Gruppe car is the beautiful gray ST, which travelled even farther, on even worse roads, to get there.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1173199945.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1173199966.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1173199991.jpg

Our Pac West region chaptermeisters have worked very hard to make this a driving chapter, and have succeeded wonderfully. Best part is, anyone can join us. Several cars in these pictures joined us on a couple of our runs last year, and we had a ball. Even more is planned for this year, I'm told.

thanks for the pics jeff. love seeing them used the way they were intended!

Jeff, Good gawd what kind of plumber put those pipes in that diaper wiped pretty blue car? --they're HUGE (but shiney):cool:

Jim, dark forces are always alive . .. MWHAHAHAhahahaha.. . .

a plot is soooo much better than a gruppe.http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/icon26.gif

We are so inclusive that we even lure . .er invite the wandering Evo wagen to our non-events.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1124067011.jpg

Tho' I think that we will start excluding people . . so that we can ALSO claim to not be elitist. Maybe we'll hand out numbered Type-R stickers too . ...hmmmmm

Sorry to see it go. ;) But when Doug Zielke disappeared, that seemingly was the beginning of the end. I have asked about his well being before and no reply, so I can only hope he is well.

Yes, the Elite few SCWDP royalty have gone completely covert, too become even MORE elite.

There are very very exclusive people know how to get a hold of someone who knows someone who can dial from the secret phone to the remote locations where the SCWDP royalty may or may not be with their numbered decoder rings.

. . .or not. We can't tell YOU. Buut, perhaps if you Submitt..

:cool:

OK, outside of Island911's island, scwdp is dead. He's like the lone Japanese WWII soldier sitting on an island, not aware of the surrender. :p

LOL :D good one, JR.

:D