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Question Bay Area Guys that Fly/Flew. Tell me about Flight Schools

My dad works with a guy that got his pilot's certificate by going to a flight school and completing the Cessna Learn To Fly program. I'm thinking of flying as a future career and I need some input on 2 different flight schools:

1) California Airways Inc. - in Hayward, CA
2) Sierra Academy of Aeronautics - in Livermore, CA

Both of these feature the Cessna flight program, and I would like some input on these schools (i.e. staff, instructors, location, ease, and other factors you would like to add). I am primarily looking for a school with knowledgeable instructors that I can complete my flight hours and training without hassle. Which would you recommend?

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Old 10-09-2005, 07:24 PM
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The individual instructor prolly is more important than which school. You gotta find somebody you get along with well, and have similar communication styles.

If they're both using the Cessna program, there won't be that much difference.

So-
Which one has nicer looking, newer, cleaner airplanes?
How do the prices compare?
Which is closer to home?

I like flying with different instructors. It's fun, and you can always pick up something new/different with someone you've never flown with before.

Nothing is more challenging, yet so relaxing as flying.
Old 10-09-2005, 07:57 PM
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Dantilla, thank you. I'll give each a call tomorrow and make a list of differences. Hayward (California Airways) is closer to home, but in a "worse" neighborhood and a little more hassle to get to than Livermore.
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Old 10-09-2005, 08:25 PM
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Matt;

Flying from Hayward will be in busier airspace, and at a busier facility. Also, the weather there will be IFR more of the time. The Livermore airport is probably easier to get to even tho it is farther away. I think I'd do the Acadummy Facility (they used to be at OAK).

Michael.
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Old 10-09-2005, 08:55 PM
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Michael, how did you start out as a pilot? Do you have any tips for a beginner for flying? BTW, Livermore is looking like the best choice so far, but I'll call and see since price will be a determining factor.
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Old 10-09-2005, 09:49 PM
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Matt,

You might also look into taking a few weeks or even a month off and going to someplace not so crowded. The problem with taking it locally and flying once a week or every couple of weeks is that you learn something and the next time you fly there is a good chance you may have forgotten it. If there is anyway to do it all in one or two time periods you learn and retain more.

Sheble Aviation out in the high desert is not that far, has trained thousands of pilots and you can fly ever day without worrying about fog and low weather. http://www.shebleaviation.com/ I used them years ago for my commercial ticket and they were very nice to work with. There are others around, ask other pilots or get a copy of the Pacific Flyer at any smaller airport.

There are several ways to learn to fly. Some enlist and do the military route. Others do it yourself like you are looking. The problem is going from having a private to a commercial if you want to do it for a living. The old days you could fly cargo or instruct to build flight time. Instructing is still there but cargo jobs seem to be not as available as it was.

Its still the best job in the world for me. I get paid far too much (do not tell anyone!) to do something I love. I leave in 10 days for Geneva, on to Dubai, then Bombay, Bangkok, Singapore and Hong Kong on a trip. Others are stuck at a desk somewhere. I like my office a lot more.

JoeA
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Last edited by Joeaksa; 10-10-2005 at 05:36 AM..
Old 10-10-2005, 05:31 AM
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Ditto on what Joe said about doing it in a short time period.

I got my private from a local little airport that rented out an old Cessna 150 and a 172. They had a couple of young part-time instructors that were building commercial time.

I got my ticket in 1994 in about 3 months for about $2500.
I ended up with 46 hours total (40 hrs is the minimum yet most end up with 60-80 hrs due dragging it out over a long time). If you fly at least 3-4 times a week, you will progress much quicker which will save you lots of money. You can buy some Gliem books to study for your written tests instead of taking a "ground school". Using the books to study, you can easily pass the tests with high 90's scores.

It really does not matter what you fly in when getting your private. Pick a cheap plane to rent like an old Cessna 150 or Piper 140. There is nothing special about a "new" Cessna 172 other than the ridiculous hourly rental rate. It will not fly any "better".
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Old 10-10-2005, 11:12 AM
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Ditto to all of the above. I got my Private in 1993 in a C-150. It had such luxury appointments as electric flaps (which nearly killed me one afternoon) and a Nav/Com, useful for finding one's way when lost (which occasionally happened for about sixty seconds per episode, but it feels like an hour).

Here's the thing: modern General Aviation aircraft are getting better and better, and offer stuff like ballistic recovery parachutes, flat-panel LCD displays, solid state attitude gyros, GPS navigation and integrated downlink weather. All of which make flying more comfortable and add an additional margin of safety.

They are all, however, USELESS to the beginning pilot, who needs nothing more than common sense, a sectional chart and a pay phone on which to call the weather briefer. You first start off by learning how the airplane flies and handles at the bottom end of the flight envelope by working the traffic pattern and doing fundamental maneuvers. With that begun, you can then work on the basics of avigation, starting out with "pilotage," or comparision of what you see out the window to what you see on the map, and then move up to "ded reckoning," or following a compass heading for a specific time and comparing the landscape that passes below you to reference points on the chart. In this way, you learn the fundamentals of "contact" flying, which is the fundamental building block for everything else.

The great thing about starting out is that you DON'T need a glass-cockpit composite retractable four-place pressurized turbine single certified for flight into known icing conditions with a flushing toilet and GPWS. Which is a good thing, because if you did, nobody would be able to afford flying unless they had the resources of a small government.

The good old C-172 is more than enough to take you through the Private and into the realm of Instrument Flying, which is where things really get interesting, and at that point when additional technology becomes critcal, not just useful. But even then, ther'es much to be learned from starting with the old ADF and learning basics of radio navigation, orientation, homing and other old-school stuff.

One more thing to add: Real Pilots fly Taildraggers!
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Old 10-10-2005, 11:51 AM
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And if you run into a fellow student who isn't interested in learning to take off or land, you will tell someone won't you . . .
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Old 10-10-2005, 01:55 PM
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Wow, thank you for the very detailed replies. Joe, I checked out Sheble with the link you gave me. Seems like a nice place, and unfortunatley I can't take any time off until possibly next summer to do something like that. Now that you mentioned it, I will probably want to get my commercial license there.
I called the two airports as listed in my first post. It looked like Hayward was the best deal, and I talked with Kieith, the owner, and he seemed very knowledgable. Dad will probably be down there to check the airport out on Friday since he's working right next to it, and I may start the first flying lesson on Saturday depending on how things go.
I have a question for the pilots:
When it says I have to be 16 to go solo, what are the restictions? I mean, will they just allow me to rent a plane without my private pilot's license and only fly alone, or how does this work??

BTW, Joe, are you classified as a "corporate" pilot?
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Old 10-10-2005, 07:20 PM
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Matt,

If you are with a qualified instructor and he signs you off for solo then you are allowed to fly in the pattern while he/she watches. They they will do some more flying with you in and out of the pattern until they feel comfortable with you. You are then allowed to fly around the area solo until you do your cross country flights. You do one or more with the instructor then you are off on your solo cross country.

Question... how old are you? Its been years since I have been in the FAR's (fed aviation regulations) regarding the age issue and am on the road now so do not have any with me. I believe that it would all depend on the insurance policy that the school has, as well as their ground rules on age and being allowed to use the plane solo.

I am a corporate pilot, just like Michael and thousands of others. Have done airline, military, medivac, cargo, bank and corporate and it all has its good and bad parts but its all flying. In the old days if you got on with an airline you were set for life, however its not that way now. With United and Delta on the ropes and cutting their retirement to the retired employees the "shine" of working for an airline is gone. So far the only one that I know of who has not laid off anyone is Southwest.

One other issue you may face is that of instructors staying with you. The market for pilots is not as hot as it has been in the past but its still good. The last thing you want to have happen is to get 20 hours into your instruction and have the flight instructor leave to move up the ladder in the aviation world. I have heard of students who had 3-4 instructors while getting their private and each time this happens they have to break each other in, and its costs the student more money each time. Try to find a school who does not have much turn-over in instructors.

Just flew from NYC to LAX, then to Carlsbad today... somewhat bushed and getting up at 04:45 tomorrow for my last days flying for 10 days. It does get tiring at times...

Joe A
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Last edited by Joeaksa; 10-10-2005 at 08:00 PM..
Old 10-10-2005, 07:57 PM
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I'll second JoeA's thoughts there. Ask the flight school how long each of the instructors have been there. Pick one that was interested enough to talk to you. They don't get paid unless they have students, so it may be a cheezy interest they have. Don't forget the female instructors too. It has been my experience that women in aviation have to be twice as good as average to get by. Besides, the unusual attitude training is better with a girl in the right seat. No, I didn't say that.

I think you asked earlier where I trained initially. Courtesy of Uncle Sam. Pensacola.

Keep us all posted on how it goes.
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Old 10-11-2005, 05:39 PM
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Thank you Michael and Joe. Both schools seemed to be interested, but the guy that owns the airport in Hayward, said I should really come on down and physically ask and walk around the facility, while the guy in Livermore, basically just answered my Q's but still had a nice attitude.
Joe, to answer your questions, I'm currently almost 16 and a half. I'm thinking if it takes me ~60 lessons (60 hours) for my private license, and if I take a lesson once or twice a week, I should be able to get the pivate pilot's license when I'm 17. I'll report back probably on Friday and see what my dad says when he's down at the Hayward location.
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Old 10-11-2005, 06:28 PM
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Let us know what happens. Am back on the ground now so can finally get back on the net!

Joe
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Old 10-12-2005, 04:22 PM
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Cool Update

I am definatley addicted to flying now! I just came back from my first lesson and got the the first half hour logged in my log book. My instructor is a cool guy. His name is Ian "John" Carisi. We flew out of Hayward and circled my house in Moraga. My mom took a few photos from the ground (our house) as we were circling Moraga, so I'll post them up here. I actually got to fly too! Pretty sweet! My next lesson will most likely be next week though. By the way, my lesson was in a C172.




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Old 10-15-2005, 03:16 PM
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Matt,

That looks just a bit low... more people are killed or injured by doing "fly-by's" of their house or showing off to some girl than in most other areas for new pilots, so pls do not make a habit of this.

A 172 is a nice plane. Costs a bit more but more power and a bit more stable. Fly it with your fingertips, not man handle the thing.

Keep it up and try to fly once a week at a minimum.

Joe A
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Old 10-15-2005, 04:53 PM
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Joe;

Remember the days when we had to 'try' and fly once a week?

Michael.

Great pics...... I actually remember the first time I touched the controls. Hooked me too.
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Old 10-15-2005, 04:59 PM
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No problem. Actually the camera is in full zoom, and we were at about 2200 ft, so the ground was a long way away. I basically only steered the (ailerons?) and rudders and that was about it. The instructor handled the elevation. Thanks for the insight though. I will be sure to keep it in mind! It was a very cool feeling flying though. I need to install my flight simulator 2004 game to cure the withdrawl!!! BTW, Joe, would you reccomend practicing Flight Simulator and reading the pdf packet on landing, takeoffs, etc, or should I just wait for my next lesson?
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Old 10-15-2005, 05:01 PM
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Matt,

Flight simulator will get you more used to the instruments but right now you need to be flying with your butt and not your brain. Get the feeling of the plane and "become one with it" so to speak. When you get in a plane and both of you fly together like you feel in a car now then its a lot easier.

Michael, yea, I did about 26 hours in the cockpit this week alone. I leave in one week for Europe and my temp gig there for a month. Will get to see a lot of plotting charts over the N. Atlantic and Indian Ocean!

Joe A
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Last edited by Joeaksa; 10-15-2005 at 05:06 PM..
Old 10-15-2005, 05:03 PM
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Cool. Thanks for the tip. Do you have any tips on takeoffs/landings with a small aircraft? Also, about how long does it take to get used to knowing what other pilots/ATC is saying on the Comm.? I think the hardest part for me was actually trying to understand what they were saying on the comm. A lot of static...

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Old 10-15-2005, 05:10 PM
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