Guys,

I live and work in China and have so for the past 7 years and in Asia for 15 years. I feel I can comment on this. All us Westerners are in trouble, not because of government policies, its people and the work attitudes. I will generalize here but Asians are prepared to work much harder and longer than westerners are to further themselves. The inequalities in trade deals will level itself out sooner or later to make a level playing field as mentioned above and then who will win. IMHO the asians have a much greater hunger than most of us westerners.

I'll be sure to think of that when I'm at work until 10pm again tonight finishing off another 65-hour week.

Plenty of Chinese do just that for $100-$200 a month and, sure it's cheap there, but not that cheap. Basically, you could take the entire US population size out of China and not make a dent in their labor pool. That's a LOT of people, which means the price of labor there will be cheap for far longer than any of here will be alive.

According to statistics I read. Or maybe made up:

Americans work the most hours per year. Second is the Koreans and third the Japanese.

I am sure for white collar work it is the Japanese. Six days a week, long hours in the office and drinking after work.

I doubt China's 900,000,000 peasant, subsistence farmers were canvassed in that poll.

Don't get me wrong - I agree that in general, the proportion of slackers to hard workers here is a lot higher than in China. Plenty of fat, lazy, stupid people in this country - but I'm sure they exist in China also. . . Just not in the same proportion.

By the same token, there are plenty of dedicated, hard-working people here. Just not enough.

What happens in China if you don't work?

You starve to death.

Here?

You get a cushy apartment, and food. All of the people I know on wellfare seem to manage to have cable, Playstations, cell phones, and cars. Working is for suckers.

All I wanted to do was spout my concerns about America giving away its manufacturing prowess. I am a conservative and dont like alot of things happening in our country (for a while) everything is not all Dubya's fault but he sure knows how to hand ammo to the enemy to use on him. anyway- I dont feel converting to a service based economy is a good thing either..service base economics is not a goal..its the outcome of failed policy. A few previous comments about attorneys and labor advocates are a thorn to us but without any constitutional rights in China it becomes purely academic....We have gone over the slippery slope... IMHO

Bob

You could starve in China even if you did work. Though those days are long gone. You think it's bad there for folks who don't work, you ought to see how it is for their prison population. Our old chain gangs got nothing on them. They are not squeamish about meting out punishment.

Manufacturing is important. And these was a very interesting thread here a while back about how the value of American manufactures is at an all time high. But like farming, it takes less workers. More high tech, more machinery. It is still a big part of our economy - but less as a percentage than years ago.

It would be a skewed sample to ask around here (as it is a Porsche board), but ask most folks what their Grandad did for a living - and would they want the same job under the same conditions? I most cases - it would be a "no".

Gaijin,

I agree with you. but I still want to emphasize the importance of all these factors. Will China someday recognize human rights?
interesting.....My grandfather was a mercinary in WWI and ran with Pershing chasing Poncho Villa. He was a professional soldier most of his life. There is no question we have created an economic system that rewards us the luxury of being fat, dumb and happy. I 'm fat dumb and happy with a 930 and dont feel like giving it up...

Bob

Why would China recognize human rights? It does not serve their interests and the world is happy to trade with them all day long for empty promises on or flat denial of the issue. Their moral values are not our moral values, which is very difficult for Americans to understand. We're so used to someone getting hurt and being able to sue someone else for it or blame anything on someone else, that we just can't imagine how a country with more than 4x our population and an unelected government can treat its people with such indifference. If you slip and fall in China, it's your fault. No lawyer is gonna make you rich. If you get caught trafficking heroin in China, you will be shot a few hours after your conviction and your family will probably get billed for the bullet. No 10 yrs. of appeals while on death row, no protests in front of the prison when you get executed. That's just how it works. The nice thing about China is, whether you like it or not, everyone pretty much knows which line not to cross. Cross it and you get whacked. Here it's all a grey area and depends solely on how good a lawyer you can afford.

China is coming round slowly on human rights. It is a slow boat and as mentioned above some of the changes are not really in China's interest. External pressure is pushing some changed. My factory aims to be 100% legal in all aspects (American Multinational). Others are not but are being forced to buy the customers.
Back to original posting, I am concerned companies are giving away all their knowledge. Short term gains manufacturing in low labour cost subcontractors is very popular. 10 years later though you have lost all the skills and the knowledge to develop further.
Service based economies can only develop so far. Should be an interesting next 10 years.

Bruce,

So, if I'm reading you accuratly you own a business in China? I assume your not American because of the way you spelled "Labour". Kind of like "litre". If so, what do you manufacture and in ten years what impact do you suspect it will make on your home country or any other? I suspect after the next ten years will really impact American industry and capabities. For an example: I am in my mid forties and have been working in American aerospace for 25 years. I am the youngest of most engineers. There is a very limited sourse of young blood with any know how because they are from the Xbox generation and lack general mechanical skills. Will we be capable of putting a man on Mars? good question.

Thanks
Bob

You are spot-on.

This is why I find software outsourcing particularly disturbing.

I don't think these two gentlemen can be compared. FastPat just cut and pasted articles here while this person actually wrote this. If someone takes the time to write something, I'll usually read it, but if I see a "cut and paste" with no original thoughts added, I usually pass by without reading it.

When I was having a fit about this years ago, the common cookie-cutter response from the right-wingers on this board was "US companies have the right to find the cheapest employees, outsource to make profits, all in the name of capitalism, etc, etc..."

What? Short-term gains not working anymore? Go figure you sellouts...I mean traitors.

Bob,

I am Australian and run a factory for an American Mulltinational. Western companies are giving away all the knowledge in Manufacturing and also are losing the R&D skill. A new process has been developed (slightly pushed by myself but these guys have learnt from this) that will result in cheaper and more efficient products. We make low tech paint brushes, cleaning brushes and applicators but I have been working on and off with US companies for 18 years and the design skills have dropped off immensly for simple and more complicated products. This is in line with what you mention above, there are few young good engineers coming through. Right now I have good Engineers in China/Hong Kong and these people are continuing to develop as they are exposed to more. I think this will accelerate as companies like do not need to own the manufacturer but subcontract to further reduce cost.

Being Aust the impact on Aust is similar to America, less manufacturing and more movement to a service based economy. Australia is fairly efficient in Agriculture and blessed with natural resources so I think we will be the farmland and mine for Asia as the developing economies open up. I am glad I am not my childrens age, it will be much harder for them to compete with the extra competition from Asian people.

Bruce,

Thanks...This is a much bigger issue than reasonable people want to accept. I hope things will somehow balance out...Not going to hold my breath...

Thanks

It will never be resolved as long as the primary goal of American corporations is return to the shareholders rather than modernization of antequated facilities. It has been pointed out before that WWII destroyed manufacturing capabilities in many countries, but not in the US. So, in those countries, they started with a clean sheet of paper, built more efficient facilities and blew us away. Steel production, automobiles, elecronics. We pay management to gut our capacity and just sit back, reaping the temporary and unsustainable rewards.