Optimum Aerobic Fat Burning % of Max. Heart Rate?

[Dan in Pasadena]

A question for you workout nuts.

I am resuming regular use of my road bike (hit by a car 3 years ago; uninjured - mostly, but had the poop scared out of me!)

I have always heard that a rule of thumb for max heart rate is 220 less your age. That would make mine 168 since I am age 52.

My question is - what sustained percentage range of your maximum heart rate must you stay in to maximize fat burning?
I think I remember being told it is lower than you might think...like 60% to 70%? If so that makes my range only about 100 to 120 beats per minute. That doesn't seem very high at all...is that right?

I checked Wikipedia and there are several methods for determining max heart rate but I can'tfind anything accurate that says what percentage of it to stay in, and for how long?

[nostatic]

I believe it is around 65%. Around 80% for aerobic training.

[Scott R]

For me it's 70 beats resting rate, 85% effort and 171 beats for target fat burn. I run 10-15 miles per day, and that rate has served me well for over 100lbs of weight loss. I didn't come up with this, it's a formula given to me by my trainer. It's called the "Karvonen" formula.

[IROC]

The more intensely you exercise, the more fat you'll burn. There has been some data in the media about burning a higher percentage of fat at lower heart rates, but it's a case of playing with the numbers. While it is true that you'll burn a higher *percentage* of fat at lower heart rates, you'll burn more total fat calories at higher heart rates.

[Dennis Kalma]

It has been a puzzle for me, there is a test you can do (requires some sort of monitoring equipment) to find out. My trainer wants me to do the test as I have a resting rate of 45 and have no trouble sustaining 155 bpm on workouts....and I am definitely no Lance Armstrong...I am 51 years old, not super trim. No family history of heart disease anywhere, no risk factors other than extraordinarily high cholesterol....

I tend to stick with rates in the 150 range, 220 less my age x .9 or so. Eric the Evil (my trainer) seems to think that my rate might be that high...he finds some people have max fat burn at very low rates and some at high rates. Averages are in the range mentioned above.....65% for max fat burn, 80% for max aerobic benefit.

The aerobic part works by building more muscle mass (assuming you do some strength training in there as well), which in turn burns more calories all the time....natural weight reduction.....

Oh yeah, I have the highest cholesterol levels on the planet, terrible reactions to statins and any anti-cholesterol medication, medical profession keeps telling me I will croak soon, I think they are full of it for my case....

Dennis

[kang]

Originally posted by IROC
The more intensely you exercise, the more fat you'll burn. There has been some data in the media about burning a higher percentage of fat at lower heart rates, but it's a case of playing with the numbers. While it is true that you'll burn a higher *percentage* of fat at lower heart rates, you'll burn more total fat calories at higher heart rates.

This is absolutely true. Say at a heart rate of 100, 25% of your calories come from fat, and at 120, only 15% of your calories come from fat. Since you burn so many more calories at 120, 15% of that number is more fat than 25% of the calories burned at 100. Make sense?

Another way to look at it is this. If what you want is an activity level where the highest percentage of calories come from fat, then you should sleep. Something like 80% of your calories come from fat when you are sleeping (I forget the exact number). The thing is, you burn very, very few calories when you are sleeping, so 80% of that is still just a small amount of fat.

[scottmandue]

Originally posted by Dennis Kalma


Oh yeah, I have the highest cholesterol levels on the planet, terrible reactions to statins and any anti-cholesterol medication, medical profession keeps telling me I will croak soon, I think they are full of it for my case....

Dennis

I eat lots of fish and sometimes won't eat red meat (or any meat) for days but my doc tells me (shows me on my blood tests) that I had borderline high cholesterol that we have brought down with statins, so I am curious about you diet. Are you eating a low cholesterol diet?

Thanks,
Scott

[gchappel]

The 220 minus your age can be quite inaccurate for calculating max heart rate. First get clearence from your MD to excercise. Buy a $75 heart rate monitor and do your own testing. Wind sprints and hill climbs will find your actual max heart rate- do your percentage measurements from there.
I am 53, my present max heart rate is 191, resting heart rate 49-51. I have ridden bikes for 20 years, but am no lance. 70% training for me is about 135bpm, if I use the 220-age it would be 116. Big difference. Train wisely, and the weight will come off. Wish mine would come off faster!
Gary

[sjf911]

Increasing intensity of exercise (and therefore HR) increases the rate of carbohydrate burning. This results in more rapid muscle glycogen depletion and earlier fatigue. Once you cross your anaerobic threshold muscle fatigue occurs very rapidly and shortens workouts. To optimize fat burning you want to stay below your anaerobic threshold (usually between 85-95% of max HR) and do endurance workouts. These can be prolonged by carbohydrate replacements (drinks, gels, bars) up to about 200-300 calories per hour. Beware that these workouts will have a very powerful effect on increasing your appetite. If you don't control calorie intake outside of the workouts you can actually find yourself gaining weight.
The longer the endurance activity, the lower your average HR during the workout should be to delay glycogen depletion.

http://www.arniebakercycling.com/

[Dennis Kalma]

Originally posted by scottmandue
I eat lots of fish and sometimes won't eat red meat (or any meat) for days but my doc tells me (shows me on my blood tests) that I had borderline high cholesterol that we have brought down with statins, so I am curious about you diet. Are you eating a low cholesterol diet?

Thanks,
Scott

I have no special diet, I tend towards chicken and fish, I watch out for the fats, but I do use butter on my toast. I have the daily dose of alcohol and generally eat reasonably.

I know some on this board in the medical profession think I am full of it, but I think the cholesterol thing is a bit blown out of proportion....having said that, why not be careful

The statins damn near killed me, I could not get out of bed, I was in pain doing anything and exercise was out of the question...

Personally, and the cardiologist also said, cholesterol is one risk factor, but it is just that...a risk factor, not a guarantee you are going to croak at 51. Factors like smoking, no exercise, very poor diet, family history etc are also considerations, so I don't stress out about having just the one way out there....

Dennis

[Dan in Pasadena]

Originally posted by gchappel
....First get clearence from your MD to excercise......Buy a $75 heart rate monitor and do your own testing. Wind sprints and hill climbs will find your actual max heart rate- do your percentage measurements from there. ..........Train wisely, and the weight will come off. Wish mine would come off faster!
Gary

I forgot to metion this when I posted this thread: My total cholestrol recently tested at 179, consistent over the years. My LDL and HDL are in the desireable range as are my tricylcerides. I had a CT scan at Heartcheck America when I turned 50 at my doctor's suggestion as my father had severe cardiac issues the last 20 years of his life and it ultimately killed him. My mother has had one mild stroke. In both cases, my parents smoked, heavily in Dad's case. I NEVER have. My CT incredibly showed NO plaque, no blockages. Doctor says I am the winner of the "genepool jackpot" on this, as it was very unlikely with my parent's history. So, "clearence to exercise" is not an issue.

I am 5'-10" tall (but am shrinking) and currently weigh about 215 - just too damned much for my frame. I'd be very happy at close to an honest 190. If I could come anywhere near approaching 180 I'd be very near my high school weight and ecstatic. NEGATIVES: I sometimes have lower back issues (partly weight, partly an old injury) and plantar fasciitis (sic?) in my right foot, so running is currently out of the question, walking is somewhat limited but not completely. Off and on over my life I have run, but I always stopped. I thought I was onto something with biking til I was hit and it queered me on continuing...but I've GOT to get my weight under control.

I'm not going to suddenly become what I never have been: drammatically better about diet, a regular weight lifter. For now, the one thing I KNOW I can do is road biking on a regular basis and it is only because I know I used to enjoy it. I don't CARE what my max heart rate is other than to help determine what rate I should target to maximize fat burning. I already have a heart rate monitor, but never use it. More suggestions/advice?

[Tobra]

Typed this out to give to my patients, got tired of writing this crap out on a note pad, sorta long, sorry. Do this stuff and I can pretty much guarantee it will improve.


Plantar Fasciitis

Generally, this is a problem that has more than one contributing factor, all should be addressed. The plantar fascia is on the bottom of the foot and is fan shaped, with the narrow end at the heel, and the wide end at the ball of the foot. Often after a period of rest, or on rising in the morning, the plantar fascia is strained, leading to heel pain. In many cases, a spur associated with the pain, but the cause of the pain is the soft tissue that is attached to the bone. Most people with this have a tight achilles tendon, where the calf muscle attaches to the back of the heel. This tendon is extremely strong, much stronger than the plantar fascia, but there is pain at the back of the heel, in addition to the typical heel pain, for many people that suffer from plantar fasciitis. Patients suffering from this complaint are often carrying too much weight, or wearing inappropriate shoes without adequate support.

This should be addressed with conservative methods before contemplating any surgical intervention. The Achilles tendon should be stretched every day, generally by doing exercises as recommended, with a splint worn at night used by some patients to achieve this. The fascia itself should be gently stretched prior to rising after a period of rest. This is conveniently done by rolling a small ball, can or soda bottle in the arch briefly before getting up and walking. In the evenings, or after periods of increased activity, ice should be applied for 10-15 minutes. Anti-inflammatory pills or injections are frequently used to reduce the pain, and allow the exercises to improve range of motion to be more effectively done. Appropriate, supportive shoes either with a custom made orthotic support or a prefabricated device should also be worn as well, particularly when the patient is very active. One of the newer non-invasive treatments is to use high energy ultrasound on the heel, under anesthesia, at an outpatient facility.

There are surgical procedures to address this problem as well, but conservative methods should be exhausted prior to contemplating more invasive treatment. For the great majority of patients, 90-95%, symptoms are resolved using conservative treatment. A maintenance program is then instituted to prevent reoccurrence of symptoms. For some patients this is as simple as stretching the calves each day. For others, orthotic supports are used in conjunction with daily exercise and a weight loss program. (During heel strike in normal walking, force is generated from 5-7 times the patient’s weight. A 1 pound weight loss can reduce the impact on the heel by up to 7 pounds.)

In cycling, you want to have your saddle position right, and be spinning the apropriate speed with the pedals to reduce chance of injury. You need to stretch often, older you are, tighter you get, tighter you get, more inevitable it is to have injury(plantar fasciitis, for example)

As you get older, you lose lean muscle mass. Muscle burns more calories than fat. If you lift weights, you tend to increase lean muscle mass, which means you burn more calories at rest, and while exercising.

If you have back trouble, you need to be doing some type of abdominal strengthening work, crunches, leg lifts, whatever.

[Dan in Pasadena]

Tobra,
Thanks for the write up, its right on the mark. A lot of it I already knew and most of it I HAVE been practicing. The Plantar Fasciitis is much better than it was only a few months ago. This has NOT been a long standing problem with me. I put on 20-25 lbs over the last 5 or 6 years. About 1-1/2 years ago I played in a softball league with my son and his friends. I had no business being there - no one else was in their 30's or 40's, much less their 50's like I was!! Now, I was pretty fast as a kid and (of course) I was out to prove I could still run like I used to. I didn't stretch enough, I kept sprinting to 1st thinking, "I'm missing another gear" and eventually I got that gear back - pretty damned fast for a 50 year old if I do say so. But the cost was the plantar fasciitis. I stretched something out down there in getting that extra step back. Initially it was quite bad. Went to the docotr, I've been on Naproxyn 2x daily for a couple of months, stopped the softball, bought shoes inserts on doctor's recommendation. Now? I'm almost there..which is why I don't think I should go back to running any time soon. But I need to drop the weight and I WILL do much better at slow prolonged stretching. Definitely no surgery necessary, just some friggin common sense like stop trying to hang with my 26 year old son. He's a jock and getting better and unfortunately, I NEED a jock and am getting worse!

[livi]

First of all I agree with Dennis. It is all a big, complex mess of a multitude of different risk factors. Furthermore the genetic part is of now small importance. A reasonable overall awareness is fine of course.

Getting all meticulous with different detailed work out schemes with the purpose of burning fat is IMO also too tedious and does not pay off that much. Better to find a training routine one really enjoy without too much hassle and concentrate a bit more on the diet too. That will get you leaner more effectively.

The most important factor with both training and diet is not exactly what you do - but that you donīt give up. No matter how precise the training method - if you canīt stand it after two months, it is all but worthless. Patience and enjoyment is the key.

[Dan in Pasadena]

Originally posted by livi
..........The most important factor with both training and diet is not exactly what you do - but that you donīt give up....

Thank Markus,
You hit the nail on the head. STAYING with the workout regimen has always been the issue. Some guys are regular-as-clockwork workout guys, I'm not. During my adult years, I've always run but I've also always stopped!

And it's not that I don't like it or mind sweating, etc. I just get up too early to run or workout unless I were willing to get up everyday at 4am...which I'm not. I CAN do it time-wise after work (I will be riding my bike then) but usually I have multiple errands to run daily, yardwork, Porsche work(!), home improvement projects, etc. All excuses but all real.

I've decided to make ME a priority...and since I truly like riding the bike - it kinda/sorta scratches the same mechanical "itch" working on/driving the 911 does, so I have a chance of staying with it.

[Tobra]

Once again with the insightful statement. Yeah, you gotta stick with it, so it must be something you like to do.

You might think you are getting that gear back, but it is gone brother. I used to run a sub 10 second 100 yards and long jump 20 feet. At 5'10" I could dunk a volleyball, hands too small to do it with a basketball. That stuff is history, fast twitch muscle goes away with time, simple fact.