What Makes America Great

[legion]

Rammstein's recent post got me thinking.

Many on this BBS have hit some sort of bottom. Some grew up poor, others mis-managed themselves and hit rock-bottom on their own. I've heard the sentiment: "I never want to be like that again" many times. It's provided motivation for much of the success of the Porsche owners here.

America is great because it allows people to fail. Hardship has bred some of the greatest art, some of the greatest leaders this country has ever seen. Every rock star and actor has lived out of their car. FDR had polio.

Welfare and other social programs stifle the creative spirit. The "safety net" prevents people from taking risks, because they are comfortable with where they are.

Want to know why we are inundated with Jerry Springer, Britney Spears, and reality TV? It's because we are seeing the fruits of the first truly comfortable generation. They have no motivation to excel.

I know people on welfare. They have cable, broadband, PS3online, and two cars. They don't eat caviar every meal, but they don't go hungry. The unemployed husband has turned down several jobs because they would lower the family's standard of living. A generation ago, the husband might risk everything on one crazy idea...and become the next Dave Thomas or Sam Walton.

I'm sure Rammstein will pull through and make me jealous when he buys a new 998 Turbo some day. (And he'll give me a repeat customer discount when he sells it. )

God Bless America!!!

[ckissick]

Chris,

Did you see the movie, "The Pursuit of Happyness"? If not, rent it. It exemplfies all that you just said. Chris Gardner, the subject of the movie, should be a roll model, not some moron athlete or movie star.

[jyl]

Originally posted by legion
Rammstein's recent post got me thinking.

Many on this BBS have hit some sort of bottom. Some grew up poor, others mis-managed themselves and hit rock-bottom on their own. I've heard the sentiment: "I never want to be like that again" many times. It's provided motivation for much of the success of the Porsche owners here.

America is great because it allows people to fail. Hardship has bred some of the greatest art, some of the greatest leaders this country has ever seen. Every rock star and actor has lived out of their car. FDR had polio.

Welfare and other social programs stifle the creative spirit. The "safety net" prevents people from taking risks, because they are comfortable with where they are.

Want to know why we are inundated with Jerry Springer, Britney Spears, and reality TV? It's because we are seeing the fruits of the first truly comfortable generation. They have no motivation to excel.

I know people on welfare. They have cable, broadband, PS3online, and two cars. They don't eat caviar every meal, but they don't go hungry. The unemployed husband has turned down several jobs because they would lower the family's standard of living. A generation ago, the husband might risk everything on one crazy idea...and become the next Dave Thomas or Sam Walton.

I'm sure Rammstein will pull through and make me jealous when he buys a new 998 Turbo some day. (And he'll give me a repeat customer discount when he sells it. )

God Bless America!!!

I agree the ability to take risks, fail, and try again are part of what make the US economy so innovative and dynamic. All those start-ups pursuing new technologies and new business models, or simply starting new small business.

But I think the guy who's content to be a welfare check couch potato isn't the kind of guy who would ever have started anything meaningful. Two different kinds of people.

Speaking of taking risks, excelling, etc - what happened to the B-school idea? You mentioned that in the rammstein thread. Any thought of doing that? In that thread, you didn't sound all that fulfilled yourself . . . (And has anyone heard from rammstein?)

[widgeon13]

Over time the gov't has created an environment that allows for these people on welfare to be pretty content with their benefits, unfortunately that is an attitude that is much too prevalent in our great country. It stifles creativity and will put an ever increasing burden on the gov't to support the masses

Just the thing that Hillary wants, "collective responsibility" but no accountability.

Why should these people work, they get it all for nothing so the incentive has been taken away.

[on2wheels52]

I've been doing my job long enough that I've seen the next generation getting on the dole. And the anticipation of that first disability check, a kid waiting for Christmas got nothing on them.
Jim

[legion]

Originally posted by jyl
Speaking of taking risks, excelling, etc - what happened to the B-school idea? You mentioned that in the rammstein thread. Any thought of doing that? In that thread, you didn't sound all that fulfilled yourself . . . (And has anyone heard from rammstein?)

Part of it is that I realized I am not management material, and the only thing an MBA would buy me around here is a leg up in an interview for a management position. It's not that I'm not capable either, but I thoroughly don't enjoy being a manager. Part of it is that I have become too wrapped up in my hobbies to set them aside to get a graduate degree. Part of it is that an MBA would do me much more benefit if I wanted to leave my company...and I'm just too darn comfortable to do that.

At heart, I'm a tech guy. I currently work on knowledge-based systems, but am exploring becoming a database administrator (DBA). It's not that I've given up on continuing education--I've taken it in a different direction.

[Moses]

You are exactly correct, legion. Our society no longer allows failure. True freedom must also include the freedom to fail. Liberty is a crucible where greatness is forged from failure. If there is no struggle there can be no triumph.

[notfarnow]

Originally posted by ckissick
Did you see the movie, "The Pursuit of Happyness"? If not, rent it. It exemplfies all that you just said. Chris Gardner, the subject of the movie, should be a roll model, not some moron athlete or movie star.

I saw an interview with Chris Gardner last night. Role model is right...wow. He is a very bright man, and makes some really interesting points.

Really great perspectives on:
-Personal choices and reponsibility
-How we define success
-racism
-a certain african american reverend
-overpriveledged kids

The interview is 12 minutes long, and it's well worth watching for a friday pick-me-up. It gets really good at 3-4 minutes

Some language NSFW
http://www.cbc.ca/thehour/video.php?id=1468

[GO DAWG GO]

+10 on the Pursuit Of Happiness. It was depressing but ultimately very positive and the good guy finally gets his break and well deserved. I highly recommend it for all. Did anyone recommend it to Rammstein..?

It is truly the antithesis of what Hollywood has created since ???? Forrest Gump???? Forrest gets his rewards by chance and just being a good guy..Chris has to work, work, work and still gets runover, but it exemplifies determination and the qualities of what built America.

Rammstein, if you havnt seen it..rent it and good luck....

Bob

[Rich76_911s]

You guys that have seen the Movie, "The Pursiut of Happyness" should read the book. The Movie doesn't even come close to telling the whole story.

By the way if you look for it in a book store you have to look it up with the misspelled version of happiness the title is spelled Happyness I had to take 3 trips to book stores to get past that loop-hole.
Rich

[Hugh R]

Its like the indians on reservations. Just enough subsidy to survive. Sure treaties with them were broken. But what's the diff between them and me? They don't pay property taxes, if I don't the gubmit can sell my house at auction. Anyone of them can get on a bus and go to the city and look for a job.

While I'm on the subject, how come indians can do something that I can't do, have casinos. And if they're "Soverign natiions" why do they have to negotiate with the state or the Feds, to have those casinos.

[Superman]

Legion, your tome started out nice but then went wacky. Moses, what the heck are you thinking?

The ability, opportunity to fail is critical. I am a labor guy, and interested in Organizational Behavior stuff. When a worker is afraid to fail, because the employer is not tolerant of failure, then risks are not taken and quantum breakthroughs are not found. Where a worker's glorious failures are celebrated....there is freedom to take risks and there is potential for amazing breakthroughs. But most companies are nto sufficiently tolerant of failure.

America is, overall, VERY tolerant of failure. Welfare helps. People know that they will be saved from starvation. Worst case scenario does not mean fighting for your life. So.....I would not agree that America stifles creativity. Indeed, it provides a fairly ideal safety net for those who wish to take risks.

Of course, not everyone is inclined that way. But that's a different discussion.

[svandamme]

none of the arguments are unique to America... same applies to European countries... and i'm sure Oz and many asian nations as well...hitting rock bottom and climbing out of the pit is a human characteristic found world wide , it's not a national thing
furthermore, this board, being a Porsche board, just happens to have a very small amount of deadbeats in it...

[widgeon13]

America is great because it still is the land of opportunity and many folks have demonstrated that it is possible to either come here from another country or be born here w/o much (or anything) and be a tremendous success.

Some people choose to be lazy and are also critical of those who succeed, there are good examples from all races and nationalities. Obstacles to some people are just a challenge and with good thought and hard work can be removed, the same obstacles to others are just an excuse not to try to succeed.

F------ welfare has nothing to do with success, it is actually a neg-motivator because people perceive the idea of getting something for nothing. Why should they work?

What does have to do with success is called character, fortitude and a never give in attitude. The interesting thing to me is that most who are successful from very little have a much greater appreciation for the value of a $$ than those who get it for nothing.

When you have nothing, you don't have far to fall when you fail.

If anyone remembers the name Bernard Baruch, he once said, " People of mediocre ability sometimes achieve outstanding results because they don't know enough to quit".

There is tremendous truth to that statement.

[Moses]

Originally posted by Superman
Where a worker's glorious failures are celebrated....there is freedom to take risks and there is potential for amazing breakthroughs.

Originally posted by Moses
Liberty is a crucible where greatness is forged from failure.

Aren't we saying the same thing?

[TimothyFarrar]

Labor guy,

Welfare helps. People know that they will be saved from starvation.

Have you ever weighed the average welfare recipient?

The fact that you can grow your own tomatoes and probably easily get a job at McDonalds almost certainly removes the need to worry about starvation.

Perhaps we can fix this welfare problem along with the problem with illegals simply by using people on welfare instead!

After all, you are already paying the people on welfare, might as well have them work at the same time.

Think about it. Welfare workers which, since you are already paying them through welfare, you simply don't have to pay anything or give benies to, or have to deal with unionizing because they arn't real employees.

Would certainly be less expensive to employ then illegals which have to be payed something.

We'd have to change a few minor laws, but I'd bet that this would truly make America Great!

Might even bring back manufacturing!

[jyl]

Check the current thread on illegal aliens, we talked about how many welfare recipients (and homeless) there are, and how many illegal alien workers there are. Can't come close to replacing the illegal labor with the welfare/homeless.

Originally posted by TimothyFarrar
Labor guy,



Have you ever weighed the average welfare recipient?

The fact that you can grow your own tomatoes and probably easily get a job at McDonalds almost certainly removes the need to worry about starvation.

Perhaps we can fix this welfare problem along with the problem with illegals simply by using people on welfare instead!

After all, you are already paying the people on welfare, might as well have them work at the same time.

Think about it. Welfare workers which, since you are already paying them through welfare, you simply don't have to pay anything or give benies to, or have to deal with unionizing because they arn't real employees.

Would certainly be less expensive to employ then illegals which have to be payed something.

We'd have to change a few minor laws, but I'd bet that this would truly make America Great!

Might even bring back manufacturing!

[Superman]

Originally posted by Moses
Aren't we saying the same thing?

We usually are saying the same thing, including this instance. You liberal think, you....

I was just commenting on your apparent feeling that America does a poor job of permitting failures. My observation is that our commitment to feed the hungry provides a safety net that encourages risk-taking.

[jyl]

Originally posted by legion
Part of it is that I realized I am not management material, and the only thing an MBA would buy me around here is a leg up in an interview for a management position. It's not that I'm not capable either, but I thoroughly don't enjoy being a manager. Part of it is that I have become too wrapped up in my hobbies to set them aside to get a graduate degree. Part of it is that an MBA would do me much more benefit if I wanted to leave my company...and I'm just too darn comfortable to do that.

At heart, I'm a tech guy. I currently work on knowledge-based systems, but am exploring becoming a database administrator (DBA). It's not that I've given up on continuing education--I've taken it in a different direction.

Okay, I was just curious. I don't like managing people either. I enjoy my hobbies but I admit they take a back seat to career. Right now I'm at a point where I don't have any hobbies - just work, family, and PPOT aka the electronic water cooler. I hope to pick up my hobbies again, but the hope is to do that on 4X the prior income. That's the goal, anyway. The best laid plans of mice and men, etc, etc.