For Shaun84Targa and any other crazy Pelicans: Wanna start a car company?

[Wrecked944]

Shaun and I have occasionally fantasized about some day designing/building a car that would be extremely fuel efficient and yet be really cool so people would actually buy and drive it. Kind of a fun way to save the world by kicking the oil addiction. I know Shaun is currently kneck deep in his current pan to save the world through fashion. So since I am home sick from work and have some free time, I figured I'd use my time to throw ideas and such on this forum to amuse an ispire him (and anyone else who is crazy enoug to dream about starting a car company). And since I just read an article about how China plans to begin selling incredibly cheap cars in the US, it seemed like a good time to ponder an American response. So in no particular order, here are some thoughts...

So off the top of my head, to make a car fuel efficient, it helps to make it as light as possible. And yet, one also wants to be as safe as possible. So I remembered all of those F1 cars that seem able to hit the walls at triple digit speeds while the drivers suffer nothing more than a bruised ego. And so maybe a carbon fiber monocoque would be in order. Super light weight and yet insanely strong. Expensive to construct, yes. But if one can get a simple design in place and use it as a platform for many vehicles, then maybe the costs can be contained. Anyway, that brought me to the Koenigsegg web site. This is a Swedish super car company that uses a c/f monocoque as the basic platfor for its cars AND includes lots of cool pics on their website. So here is a pic of a basic Koenigsegg chassis...



Why reinvent the wheel when you can stand on the shoulders of those who came before, right? The Koenigsegg monocoque is, of course, designed speficially for a two seat mid-engine supercar. But after looking at it, I am guessing it could probably inspire a more generalized design. Design it to include sttandardized bolt on points for engine, tranny, and suspension bits and it could be relatively easy to assemble and reconfigure (individually customizable products are going to be the wave of the future, IMO - think Dell computers).

Then for the powerplant. I know that Pelican member DEAN is already running his VW TDI's on biodiesel and getting mad power and torque out of them. So maybe a VW turbo diesel motor could be the weapon of choice. With a light weight car, it could be fast as all hell and still get super delicious gas mileage using home grown American biofuels. And since Porsche is buying 20% of VW, you could almost call it a Porsche Powered car. Of course there are may other options - like motorcycle engines, air cooled VW flat fours, etc etc.

Manufacturing could be a real PITA - especially if one considers the potential liability issues. No matter how safe you build a car, some assclown is going to drive it backwards in the wrong directon on an exit ramp and sue you for his/her own stupidity. Of course, some companies like Factory Five sell cars as kits. And didn't Lotus do that for a while as well? And of course there is the example of the "Locost", a car which only exists in the form of a book that tells you how to build one. I've seen a couple of those cars and it is a preetty cool idea. Another option is to start an "Open Source" car project. Then you could have many individuals design and build it over the course of time and allow small, independent companies to build their own versions (and take on all of the financial and legal risks). Make magazine suggested starting an open source car project with the intention of designing a simple, safe, fuel efficient car that could be built using common, cheap, and locally available parts so people in third world countries could construct them.

Okay, I hope you are all at least amused. I need to go take some ibuprofen and take a nap.

[Jared at Pelican Parts]

count me in. I've actually done some of my own monocoque work in CAD for fun.

[Wrecked944]

Originally posted by Jared Fenton
count me in. I've actually done some of my own monocoque work in CAD for fun.

Really? That sounds slick. Got pics?

Oh yeah, and I almost forgot. Here is a Toyota prototype from 2004. It has a carbon fiber chassis along with a hybrid gas/electric motor producing 408 peak horsepower with acceleration from 0-60 in just 4.03 seconds...and it gets...wait for it...31 mpg!



Whichever country solves the oil addiction problem will have an instant and enormous geopolitical and economic advantage. That Toyota shows that other nations are aggressively pursuing the goal. Personally, I'd like to the US win the race.

[Joeaksa]

Make it a kit car, that takes a lot of the liability out of your hands. Not sure how a diesel engined sports car would do on the market, would have to be really sorted out.

joe

[dd74]

Hmmm...good stuff. Isn't c/f still quite expensive? It might mitigate the "cheap" or shall I say, approachable cost of the car. How about aluminum?

My thinking is you need less exotic parts to get this thing to its price point -- which is...what? And how many units do you plan?

Engine: wouldn't go TDI. At least not in L.A. People still have ill perceptions of diesel Mercedes Benzes that were slow on on-ramps, noisy, polluted and diesel is currently as expensive as standard gasoline. I'd do the motorcycle engine, or a very small four cylinder.

Study urban markets - big cities especially. L.A. and London are probably the ones where you'll most find cars like what you're thinking about.

Is it "Yaros" or some name like that, who just put out a very inexpensive car from Japan? I believe Toyota owns them? You should check out that car for ideas. I think it'll sell very well out here.

Point of reference, Lotus was never a kit car. Say "kit car" to a Lotus engineer, and you'll be talking out of your arse.

Conversely - say "kit car" to an average consumer, and they'll walk away, particularly where safety is concerned.

Open source car? Sounds cool. Thing is, with a bunch of different designers all over the world, how will you stay on focus of what the car is meant to be. Also, everyone must agree and understand the safety and environmental issues the car may come up against.

Lastly, I suspect you'll need a bunch o' seed money.

[dd74]

Wait a minute: I'm thrown here. Do you want to build a performance car? I saw TDI, VW etc., (then got interrupted by a co-worker), and thought economy/inexpensive.

If it's performance you want, by all means a motorcycle engine would be best - with sequential shifting.

There are several kit cars that do this already.

At any rate, federalization is a problem. And not many I know of go for the kit car thing.

[livi]

Sounds cool. You need a long distance crash test doctor. Sign me up.

[cstreit]

I'm guessing the US safety regulations will add 50% to your cost... I bet that's one of the things keeping a lot of cheaper cars out. Could be wrong.

I wonder if there is a way around this by selling it as a "kit" car. Maybe you have to install the steering wheel or tires to finish the kit?

[M.D. Holloway]

Count me in - I will build you a sales/marketing model that will take share from any kit/exotic/mainstream ricer!

[M.D. Holloway]

Originally posted by cstreit
I'm guessing the US safety regulations will add 50% to your cost... I bet that's one of the things keeping a lot of cheaper cars out.

Price objections are just cordial elucidations for a more defined value statement - in other words, make them understand why it is priced at what it is.

So many companies think that people buy on price - I have proof and data that sayz otherwise. It is really sad and unfortunite that products and services are scaled around misconceptions.

[M.D. Holloway]

make it run on pure ethanol

[bryanthompson]

I want to play! I'm learning PIC programming & circuit design right now... surely that'll be worth something?

[Argeo]

There is car/ motorcycle thing that the security at the Hanover Mall in Mass use. It has 3 wheels and only holds two people. I think they might drive them in the UK. Anyways, they are suppose to be great on gas. Most of us driving to work everyday are lugging along enough space for 3 other people, if you could cut it down to one or two I think you could find significant savings. Yes they have 2 seaters but they are usually sportscars, I am thinking something designed on efficiency.

I suppose you would have to throw alot into safety features, dam sport utility trucks would probably crush one in an accident. Maybe put the driver in the middle for some added protection.


Good luck.

David

[Wrecked944]

Originally posted by dd74
Wait a minute: I'm thrown here. Do you want to build a performance car? I saw TDI, VW etc., (then got interrupted by a co-worker), and thought economy/inexpensive.

Well, keeping in mind this fantasy can't be implemented until Shaun84Targa does the G9 IPO, I am assuming lots of time is available for wild-assed dreaming. So I was taking the widest view possible for brainstorming - going for the biggest tent and then pairing it down. Throwing poop against the wall to see what sticks. Basically, I am guessing if a versatile chassis can be designed that is light weight and strong, then it could serve as the foundation for both an econo commuter car with a small motor and a screaming track rocket when fitted with a proper powerplant - sort of the way American manufacturers build light trucks and SUV's on the same chassis. And didn't Audi and VW use the same chassis for the Passat and the A4?

And yeah, c/f is totally expensive. But dayyam...it would be an amazing platform that could be used in many different circumstances. It can solve so many problems in one shot.

As for the kit car idea...that was/is all about addressing legal issues. Wasn' t that why Lotus presented their 7 cars as "kits"? Maybe I am remembering incorrectly. And I would think cstreit has the right idea...if one goes for a "kit car" business model, it should probably come as complete as possible in the box...assembly with just simple hand tools - like an Ikea book case. Perhaps I am worrying too much about liability. But I have visions of idiots driving over cliffs and blaming the manufacturer.

And LubeMaster is dead right about ethanol. Did y'all know that Brazil is booming economically in part because they are on the verge of being energy independent? They switched to an ethanol based economy and can now thumb their noses at the oil cartels and crazy middle eastern lunatics. Man, I hate to see other nations beating us to the punch. And since Brazil has already worked out most of the details, imagine what would happen if a country like...oh...CHINA used the Brazilian model to go totally energy independent? America would be left twisting slowly in the wind.

[targa911S]

i'll do your advertising.

[dhoward]

I'll bring the beer and girls.
....for the advertising....

[lendaddy]

Don't take this wrong, but do you guys have any idea what kind of scratch you'de need to do this? Sick, horrible, disgusting scratch..........with scratch on it for garnish.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Great post Janus, though sorry to hear of your recent demise.

I know only one thing about engineering: railroad cars are the strongest thing on this earth, at least in one or two directions anyway. My thought would be an aluminum frame riveted and bonded together with a nearly one piece plastic body bolted on, like the Lotus Elan did, but they used a flexi-flyer sheet-steel backbone. There could be some real advantages to pulling together a multi-directional RR car design motif and running with taht as a modular concept.

For power, diesel could work and has the added advantage of Audi's racers using diesels. I'm a big fan of fuel cells, but don't think the public is ready for them. I like ethanol only because the government already throws so much money toward farmers, what's a few more. Plus, a liquid fuel infrastructure is already in place, so ethanal could work just fine.

To get kit car status, you just have to ship the motor separately, or have that as an option, to get around crash testing. I believe we could engineer somethign that would survive, but konw the cost and time to do it is prohibitive.

So, I'm in, but won't be able to devote any real time to it until June. I've got the fall line to get out, spin off the publishing venture and get that secret T-shirt idea going. Once that is all running smoothly, I could devote some serious time to it.

I recommend we create a secure website, an NDA, and maybe an LLC for those truly serious about the project. Next is a gameplan, business plan and timeline.

We should have something sellable in about 2 years costing about $200K for a prototype or 2.

So let's get those finite analysis programs up and running and get going on this, time's a wastin'.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally posted by lendaddy
Don't take this wrong, but do you guys have any idea what kind of scratch you'de need to do this? Sick, horrible, disgusting scratch..........with scratch on it for garnish.

I know a few people who would be interested in this project after details have been fleshed out.

[M.D. Holloway]

Janus - Brazil is doing great due in part because they now are out producing us in soy production and maybe even corn production. We could very quickly change that but too much has been invested in crude processing here than there. They are starting out with a blank slate we have zillion dollors wrapped up in antiquated industries and foolish mindsets.

One saving grace, China will never have the ability to grow ag the way the US can. They just do not have the land to do it.