I have another story.

My wife, daughter and her friend were driving through a small town. They were stopped. My wife asked the officer "How fast was I going?" The officer's response was "This must be your lucky day.....my radar gun was turned off." He goes back to his cruiser and returns with a ticket for going 45 in a 35. His notes (we requested and received a copy) said clearly, in several different ways, that he determined her speed by radar. On court day, the prosecutor, after hearing what my wife and daughter's testimony was going to sound like, asked the judge to dismiss the charge.

Policemen are not infallible. Sure, private sector workers are, but public servants are not.

:eek: I'm shocked that a police officer would do that! :eek:

Because a civilized society, based on laws, demands it.

Yet I've had a LEO lie in his testimony (to a charge I was going to (and did) plead guilty to). You may be honest, but too many LEOs aren't, and that's why we have (other) laws and procedures that are set up to ensure that these "demands" are met. One other thing...I doubt seriously that most could estimate speeds in a valid "scientific test" with any decent statistical probabilty that would pass the "smell test". Even if "some" could, I'd bet others would embarrass you with their inabilty...what about them?

Brilliant post.

Believe it or not, but when the Founding Fathers collaborated, debated and then drafted the Constitution of the United States, they cared very little about your myopic little life and all of your little life experiences that inevitably begin with the word "I."

They cared more about the survival of the Republic, the "Good of the Whole" and much less about the "individual." The Bill of Rights was an afterthought.

Our legal system is one of statutes. To simplify for you (and it sounds like you need simplification) , there are big crimes, medium sized crimes and little crimes.

The bigger the crime, the higher the burden of proof that the State must show that you "did it."

Your speeding ticket is a little crime. Get over it. Society cares not about the "injustice carried out by the State against you."

Is it paramount to the survival of our way of life that a police officer be able to estimate with EXACT accuracy the difference between a vehicle going 60 mph or 65 mph in a 45 mph zone??? Do we really care that the Cop is or isnt able to prove it through a "scientific test?"

I would submit to you that it is not, and that we (the citizenry) do not think that it is. What we care about is that we dont get T-Boned by some jack-A## running 62.5 mph in a 45 mph zone in his BMW (while talking on his cell phone and balancing his Starbucks between his legs) because he made a lane change as we were pulling out of our kids school parking lot.

You (and me) might like to drive a little bit faster than the flow of traffic. But the reality is that we piss off the vast majority of the VOTING population when we do it. And these are the people who elect the people who write and implement public policy.

You are a hypocrite because you fein innocence and express outrage when you get caught speeding.

I am a hypocrite because I drive as fast as I want to and then use my position to avoid an enforcement action when I get caught speeding.

The fact is, we were both speeding. And even if we weren't speeding AT THAT INSTANT, we WERE speeding just 1/2 a mile back. Rejoice in the fact that you "got away with it" the 999 times prior to getting the ticket.

Brilliant post.

Believe it or not, but when the Founding Fathers collaborated, debated and then drafted the Constitution of the United States, they cared very little about your myopic little life and all of your little life experiences that inevitably begin with the word "I."

They cared more about the survival of the Republic, the "Good of the Whole" and much less about the "individual." The Bill of Rights was an afterthought.

Our legal system is one of statutes. To simplify for you (and it sounds like you need simplification) , there are big crimes, medium sized crimes and little crimes.

The bigger the crime, the higher the burden of proof that the State must show that you "did it."

Your speeding ticket is a little crime. Get over it. Society cares not about the "injustice carried out by the State against you."

Is it paramount to the survival of our way of life that a police officer be able to estimate with EXACT accuracy the difference between a vehicle going 60 mph or 65 mph in a 45 mph zone??? Do we really care that the Cop is or isnt able to prove it through a "scientific test?"

I would submit to you that it is not, and that we (the citizenry) do not think that it is. What we care about is that we dont get T-Boned by some jack-A## running 62.5 mph in a 45 mph zone in his BMW (while talking on his cell phone and balancing his Starbucks between his legs) because he made a lane change as we were pulling out of our kids school parking lot.

You (and me) might like to drive a little bit faster than the flow of traffic. But the reality is that we piss off the vast majority of the VOTING population when we do it. And these are the people who elect the people who write and implement public policy.

You are a hypocrite because you feign innocence and express outrage when you get caught speeding.

I am a hypocrite because I drive as fast as I want to and then use my position to avoid an enforcement action when I get caught speeding.

The fact is, we were both speeding. And even if we weren't speeding AT THAT INSTANT, we WERE speeding just 1/2 a mile back. Rejoice in the fact that you "got away with it" the 999 times prior to getting the ticket.

This is the thing, though. What you describe here is a danger to society, clearly. But you've added many more elements of danger than just speed. I simply don't believe that speed in and of itself is dangerous. Hell, that's what track driving is all about - using speed safely and understanding the car's dynamics while you're doing it. It's what you're doing while going fast that makes things dangerous, but in 95% of our daily driving, so other factors make driving just as dangerous even when done within the speed limit. Again I come back to the analogy to guns - in and of themselves, they're harmless. It's what you do with them and how responsibly they're handled.

Speeding tickets in general are a cash cow, and we all know it. Cops know it, drivers know it, judges know it. Therefore, people will fight it, and use whatever means are at our disposal to do so. If the system is set up unfairly, then the system should expect the entire arsenal available to be used against it.

You know what? If speed is really that dangerous than up the demerit point charges and drop the cash charges. Make it more like drunk driving - license suspensions, jail time, etc. Then maybe people will take it seriously.

Too politcally charged. I resign from this thread. I will speed when I feel like, and deal with it the way I see fit. I will also rationalize it the way I want to.

+1. The story described above isn't about speed, it's about the other factors. But cops aren't generally looking for other factors, they're looking for speed. (I know there are exceptions -- I have a friend who cruises in an unmarked watching for idiots. But he's the exception, not the rule.) It isn't a crime to drink *$ while driving, and most places haven't banned cell phone use while driving. Every day, I see people pulling inane stunts on the on-ramp, or in the merge lane, or anywhere else on the commute, in front of police officers, but they're not speeding, so it's ok. Every day in the Hampton Roads area, it's considered "normal" to have one accident at Ft. Eustice, and another at Greenbrier, then two others somewhere else. Less than that is a "good traffic day," more than that is a little unusual, but not a lot unusual. If it rains, double the numbers. If it's extra sunny, double the number. Drivers are terrible.

If safe driving was the issue, we'd shovel money into programs to educate drivers, and measure our success in the number of accidents on the road each month. (Which is, off the top of my head, more people each month nationwide than we've lost in Iraq in the last several years, but ... nevermind...) We'd offer state-funded driving classes that actually taught people how to drive, rather than simply explaining to them what the signs mean, or how to parallel park. Driver's tests would be hard, and there wouldn't be quite so many drivers, because getting a driver's license wouldn't be just a function of waiting in some line for the requisite period of time.

The issue isn't, and never has been, safety while driving. The issue that we take offense at is that it's a tax levied under the name of "safe driving." Because the focus of the process is revenue, not safe driving, the legal process surrounding it is a sham, and we get upset about that. That's natural.

Unfortunately, nobody cares enough about it to elect someone who even claims they'll fix it. Instead, we vote on things that matter more to us, and the traffic tax just continues.

Extremely well put. Thanks. Much better stated that my attempt!

Oh, you mean we'd do it the European way?

Interesting factoid....I spent the month of April in Holland, drove around the place in rush hour, traffic was unbelievably busy, road system off of the main routes is full of blind corners, multiple entrances, signs all over the place....and guess what....did not see one traffic accident. Not a fender bender, nothing. I am sure they occur, but I suspect the frequency is far lower than in North America.

The difference? In Canada I can confidently say that my driving is above average in terms of awareness and safety....in Holland, I feel like I barely make the grade and am usually the one holding things up while I figure out what to do....

Dennis

Thank you, but I don't need simplification, and I really don't mind paying for legitimate speeding tickets. I've gotten out of several over the years, and have also paid a few with no qualms (and all of them have for going less than 12 over, so we're not talking endangerment here.) You are absolutely correct that "speeding is a little crime...." but having a LEO commit perjury (and it sure seemed to me, that he was following his usual canned testimony/routine, in a case I was pleading guilty to) also taught me a huge lesson about (at least one LEO) in your profession. I'm sorry, but issueing speeding tickets for less than 10 over while REAL driving dangers are ignored is bs. Yes, we still have some Barney Fife's around here (catch them on a bad day, and 5 over will get you cited), that go by the book :(

It's all about money - any "public safety" benefit is unintended and incidental at best. How many times does this need to be said/proven?

Subpoena the g-damn radar manual and get rid of this nonsense once and for all.

I think he just wanted an operators manual...

Not in California.

California Cities recieve less than 15% of the fine amount for traffic citations. A typical $241 speeding ticket nets the city about $12 bucks. Yipee.

Traffic enforcement, money wise, is a loser for California cities. They HAVE to fund it because the citizens DEMAND it. They dont complain about murders, they dont complain about robberies, they dont complain about burglaries. They complain about SPEEDERS and BUMS.

SPECIFICALLY, it costs 3 hours of overtime ( $144.19 ) for me to show up for court, even if I'm only there for 3 minutes.

Add into that the cost of the court room, the judge/commissioner, the bailiff(s), a translator, the cost of the clerks to process the ticket at the police department and then again at the county courts building, and you'll see that it is a LOSER.

I don't get how you guys think that the "Evil Government" is getting rich off of this "traffic ticket enterprise."

My advice? Contest your ticket. Maybe the cop has plans to go to the river the day that he is supposed to be in court on your ticket.

hmmmmm. Maybe you guys could recommend your "beat the ticket by demanding a radar manual" strategy to the American Trucking Association. I'm sure that none of the 5000 lawyers who work for the trucking industry have ever thought of this "loophole." LOL

OR

write one of those "Fight your Speeding Ticket in Court and WIN!" books, sell it on EBay and use the profits to buy yourself an F430!

You guys are a crack-up. :D

Silverwhaletail, like it or not here are my positions:

* I admire police officers and am grateful for their service.
* Traffic enforcement = speeding tickets = nothing but a joke. And as such, I'm not going to take it seriously or respect it. If it were about safety, we motorists would notice and we would respect that. It's not. You know it and I know it. At least....you SHOULD know it, but that's a bitter pill to swallow if you're wearing the badge.
* Police officers being able to accurately "estimate" a vehicle's speed by simple visual observation........falls in to the joke category.
* Police officers' unreliable visual estimates of vehicles' speeds are not going to get my respect. If judges are in the habit of pretending they are accurate to help perpetuate the joke we call "traffic enforcement," then that is sad. And my respect is still withheld.
* But again, I am grateful for the actual public and motoring safety efforts of our police officers, and for the other unpleasant and dangerous services they perform. My hat is off. My respect would certainly increase if the joke we call "traffic enforcement" were taken a bit seriously.



I see very dangerous behavior and conditions on the roadway each and every day. No kidding, I've seen police officers follow cars for miles that have one working tail light or one working brake light.....and not do anything. I've seen cars with no working brake lights. I've seen cars doing 40 on the freeway. I've seen a car at dusk on the freeway being towed by another car using a tow strap and NOBODY WAS IN THE CAR IN TOW. Motorists are not afraid of being pulled over for anything except speeding. SPEEDING is the only motoring law, I guess. Aside from speeding, it's a FREE FOR ALL.



So.....I can see you're defensive and I would be too. But you don't get a "pass." You assert those speeding tickets are so vitally important that courts should pretend that police officers can estimate speed visually and are always correct in their subjective conclusions. I'm not buying it.

+1 All the other rules of the road seem to be forgotten unless there's actually been an accident. Then, suddenly, failure to yield the right of way, to use turn signals, to follow at safe distances, etc. become violations. Speeding may be the easiest (most objective) thing to enforce. It's a lot more objective to point at a laser/radar gun and say, "hey, you were breaking the law," than it is to point at objective evidence that someone was driving like a dangerous jerk. But LEOs shouldn't kid themselves and think that speeding's really the most dangerous thing going on out there.

Good points about the relative importance (or lack thereof) of speeding in the grand scheme of life. However, I would submit that while speed is a contributing factor to the above scenario, inattention is a much bigger factor. Well, that and poor judgement. Same hypothetical accident would have occurred (with said numnuts Bimmer) had he been traveling 45 mph...because he wasn't paying attention to his driving and the traffic patterns around him. There's no way of proving I'm right/you're right. But c'mon, ask people who have a clue about driving, and I think the majority will side with me. However, it's a lot harder to prove inattention and poor judgement in a court of law, than it is speeding.

Now you're talking about separate things. Going faster than the flow of traffic is one issue. (Actually, to split hairs, how much faster to constitute safety significance is another debatable point.) But what about when the overall flow of traffic is already faster than the posted speed limit? You must admit, that's almost a universal phenomenon (given decent traffic/lighting/road/visibility/weather conditions). When the average speed is higher than the posted limit, to a certain extent, hasn't the populace unofficially spoken? And when's the last time you saw any politician list, amongst his/her planks, speeding control as a major concern? Speeding may be a leading reason for the calls you get at the precinct/barracks. But to say that this equates to what the voting public wants more than anything else is not the same thing.

Hey, I don't feign innocence, and I complain all the time about the crappy state of driving going on.

Thanks for at least being honest. I've lurked on LEO forums where no one :rolleyes: admitted to speeding. Personally, I don't begrudge an LEO's ability to flash a badge to get out of a ticket (within reason). For all the crap that LEOs have to put up with, it's a small perk in the grand scheme of things. However, there is the larger matter of insurance fraud that goes on as an indirect result. After all, insurance rates are based in part upon driving record. LEOs (and sometimes their family) have artificially cleaner records than the rest of the population. So they pay less for car insurance, as they're more "dangerous" drivers than their records would suggest. So the rest of the population shoulders a proportionately larger share of the car insurance premium pie. Not necessarily a small financial deal in states like mine, where your record is kept on file for 6 years.

Fair 'nuff. But there's still ridiculous hypocrisy going on. Perpetrated by both sides.

Would like to thank you, silver, for explaining some of the finances involved when a ticket does get fought.

Sorry, that is a load of rubbish. So if I am doing 120 a cop can guess my speed to within a couple of miles an hour???

emmm I dont think thats being a hypocrite, I think thats perverting the course of justice.

Funny, but you misread my post.

When I said "subpoena the stuff and be done with it", I meant with the griping about not being able to get one. I fully well realize that simply procuring a radar operator manual will not absolve you. It provides valuable information that MIGHT help to exonerate someone, but it is not a "slam dunk".

As far as the bull**** rationalization about how speeding tickets and traffic enforcement is a "loser" for communities (and it is bull**** rationalization), it's simply not believable. Post real numbers and real dollar figures here if you want to take that position - I challenge you to. Publicly. Please. I want to see how the altruistic knights of public service are responding to their civic charge in life by going out and busting someone for 5 miles over the speed limit on a deserted country road at 2AM (or whatever) and have no financial motivation whatsoever to do so. Please post some actual dollar numbers here instead of the crap you're taught to swallow without thinking as part of PD academy brainwashing.

Christien, make sure you revive this thread after your court date in October to let us know the outcome.

As a result of reading this post, I'll definitely ask the nice policeman/woman to see the read-out. It's worth a shot.

I will, so long as I remember! :) It's definitely worth a shot. If nothing else, you can learn a bit more about the unit, where it sits, how it's aimed, etc.

Even so, if you challenge the evidence and the cop doesn't show up to court (happens all the time) you are automatically off the hook.

Well, that also depends. In some places (like where I live), apparently the LEO doesn't have to show. He/she just has a colleague read off the report filed. Of course, if you start questioning the report, there's no way for the stand-in LEO to respond to your challenges, so perhaps you can win that way. But just be forewarned.

Here you get off if they don't show. I believe it's actually something constitutional - something to do with having the right to face your accuser in person. If I'm not mistaken, it's the same reason they had to do away with photo radar.

Here in Massachusetts, you're guilty until proven innocent. (A bit ironic, isn't it?) Unless you happen to be a Kennedy. Then you're innocent no matter what you did.

Write a letter to the California department of transportation if you want those numbers. The California DMV and the California Highway Patrol could also likely give you the numbers. I'm not interested enough to pursue the exact data. The percentages are enough for me.

You live in Long Beach, CA. There is an unwritten policy at LBPD to "give away" 14 mph. So if the speed limit is 40, they wont bother you at 54 and below.

A LBPD motors "goal" is 11 tickets a day. They can write 8 tickets during the first hour and a half of their shift, goof off for the next 7 hours, and then write 3 more tickets sometime during the last hour and a half, and thats it for the day. I hate motor officers. Lazy pieces of S---, every single one of them. but I digress...

I worked at LBPD during the crack cocaine epidemic of the 1990's. In 1994 your city had 144 homicides. Long Beach is a tough town. Please trust me when I say that your patrolmen have very little time for "busting someone for 5 miles over the speed limit on a deserted country road at 2AM (or whatever)". :D

I left that City in 2002 because LB is a very poor city and is among the worst paid departments in California. (The money is so bad, in fact, that I became heavily involved in Real Estate and bought a property management company because I didn't want to be poor forever.)

Where I work now, There are no murders. There is no violent crime. The citizens demand traffic enforcement. People in the neighborhoods come out of there houses and give you gift certificates for 10 free dozen of Krispy Kreme Doughnuts, just to thank you for working stop signs and speed enforcement on their streets.

Is it fun? Its not Long Beach. I enjoyed working street sales and gang enforcement. The first time I was ever shot at was on the northwest corner of Atlantic and New York. They hit our car but not us. Total rush. But enough is enough. I had to kill a savage who was trying to kill me. I have a letter from Gil Garcetti stating that I acted in self defense, and that the death was ruled justifiable homicide. When you have a family, your priorities tend to change. Yes, I miss the constant chaos and the "vibe" that one only gets on Artesia between Atlantic and The Boulevard. I even got to know Suge Knight's mom (very nice lady), sister and crack head brother-in-law...

Bottom line, where I work now the citizens want traffic enforcement. I give them traffic enforcement.

Christien: I have a teaching history regarding radar. Feel free to PM me specific questions; I don't want to get into a debate with all the experts on this thread. Good luck on winning your case....

http://www.decaturradar.com/detail.php?Detail_ID=13

This isn't true everywhere, sadly. WA actually has it noted in the code, that the officer isn't required to be present. There is a supreme court case from March of 03 that could apply, regarding the use of ex parte testimony.

Will it help in a traffic "court?" Probably not, but I'll look it up this afternoon if anybody wants it.

Crawford v Washington, 8MAR04. From wikipedia, "reformulated the standard for determining when the admission of hearsay statements in criminal cases is permitted under the Confrontation Clause of the Sixth Amendment to the United States Constitution." If you read the ruling (and it isn't long), there's a lot of good stuff about how ex parte testimony was forbidden by the founding father's to prevent exactly this sort of abuse.

The thing you may run into if you use this in a traffic "court" is that you're not being tried for a criminal offense. Civil law is different.

Good luck.

Not True. I shoot Laser everyday. If my battery goes dead and I plug into my bike. Every time I start up my bike after shooting and locking the laser, it will clear itself. I still write the ticket, explain it on the cite and it has never been a problem. So it is possible that his unit could of cleared itself.

Something else. I pulled someone over with New Jersy plates the other day. The first thing he asked me, before he would "give" me his license was if I pulled him over because he had out of state plates. I could give a crap what state he was from, I pulled him over because he was going 18 mph over the speed limit. The funny thing, I was going to give him a warning intil the first thing out of his mouth was that.

Where do you guys get this stuff. Maybe it's a state thing. I don't have a License to use a Radar or Laser. I am certified. I only need to have that certificate with me in court along with a current speed survey of the road and the radar or laser units latest calibration.

Gotta agree with you there. Unless it's a school zone with children present, I don't write any tickets for less then 15mph. I'm still busy all day.

wow, to think the last ticket I got in Canada ( driving home from Mt Treblant), I decided to not pay ( Ontario only has reprocity with NY and MI).. yeah I may be a wanted man in CAN, but I"m $300 richer,, F-em!!! LOL

I argued this point before, but a visual "estimate" is not that difficult to do. I guess I'm just gifted.;) It's actually a game for me. I see a car, estimate its speed then confirm with my laser. I do that every time and I'm good at it. Because I typically work laser in the same specific areas, I know what 10-15 mph over looks like when I see it.

We only train up to 90mph. In that case All I would have to say was that you were traveling at an extremely high rate of speed. It wouldn't take a rocket scientist to recognize that that is much faster then whatever the posted speed limit is. Besides once you went to court to fight that ticket. If that speed was caught on laser, you would have much bigger issues then what the cop estimated your speed at.

I don't know one motorcyle cop who writes for less then 10 mph. All the ones I work with don't even start our bikes unless your going more then 15 mph over. But, I also don't give alot of warnings. I figure that if you ride by me and your doing 10-14 mph over, you just got your warning.

Financial motivation? Wow, I write alot of tickets, someone must of forgotten me, I haven't received anything. Guess I'm not writing enough tickets.

Don't be a hater. Sounds like your doing the exact same thing as those lazy pieces of S--- motor officers you hate except you have air conditioning. Don't know how long you've been on the job, But I didn't spend my entire 16 years on a bike and neither have any of my friends. Like you said, after you have a family or have been involved in a few things your priorities tend to change.