Radar gun operator's manual

[Christien]

As the subject says, I'm looking for a copy of the operator's manual for a Decatur Genesis II. I'm fighting a speeding ticket and would like to research the unit. I did contact the manufacturer, but he said they'd only provide it to law enforcement agencies.

A hard copy, photocopy, pdf, whatever format, is acceptable, and I'm happy to pay for it, or copies, etc. I'm keeping an eye on ebay, but so far nothing.

Anyone know where I should look?

Thanks!

[}{arlequin]

freedom of information act? you could file a FOIA request w/ your local law enforcement agency but this process *may* take some time. not sure what your schedule is like.

just realized you're in canada. don't know whether you have a FOIA thing going on there or not, but you could still file the request w/ a u.s. police dept that is closest to you

[Christien]

We do have pretty much the same thing, but that could definitely take months, if not years, sometimes! My court date is Oct. 31, so there's a fair amount of time, but the internet's way faster than FOIA requests. If I'm stuck after searching for a week or so, I'll do that.

[cashflyer]

I don't know about Canada, but here you can subpoena the manual directly from the manufacturer or from the police department. It is actually better to try the police department first because if they "don't have it" then that is a trump in your defense case.

Some info at this PDF link: http://tinyurl.com/2hox2t

[Joeaksa]

Thats pure BS, making the manual available only to LE.

Wonder what they do not want everyone else to find out?

When you were tagged did you ask the last time the radar gun was calibrated? They used to requre calibration fairly often and if it had not been calibrated recently the tickets given were not valid...

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Subpoena the ***** if they're dicking you around with it. You should be able to by filing a simple request with the Clerk of the Court.

[Rot 911]

What Cash said. If the prosecutor has a witness that is going to testify as to how the radar gun works he has to produce the manual. You need to file a "Request for Production of Documents."

[K9Torro]

Christen

That is one of the systems we use along with the Gen 1's as well, the manual really is not that much it just shows how to install and gives some factory specs , most of them get thrown away, it is not really a reference or how to type of book , no more than a small 4 x 8 phamplet of a few pages with diagrams,.

I know nothing of Canada's traffic laws , but you would be better served trying to locate a copy of the LE radar operators course text for the class the operator had to attend in order to run the system, this will cover what he has to do in order to operate the radar according to your rules, also you might check your provience code/law about the operation of radars, U.S. states have specific laws regarding the operation of radars and the acceptable types for each state to use, IMHO

I will hunt around for one of the manuals for you and see what I can find,

Todd

[Superman]

Originally posted by Joeaksa
Thats pure BS, making the manual available only to LE.

Yup, it is. Private businesses LOVE to hide documents. They are not subject to public disclosure laws, so if they don't want to provide you with a document.....guess what? And you guys want to hand government work over to private companies. Great......just don't expect to be able to get ANY questions answered.

Now public agencies, that's a different story. Except for small bits of information that are confidential under statute (like your Social Security Number, for example), public agencies are required to provide you access to all records. ALL records. So.....if they have that manual and it's not protected by a specific confidentiality statute, it's yours.

What's not yours is information about HOW the radar and laser guns work. They work using some assumptions and some math, for example, that nobody will disclose to you. At least, not with laser. The developer of that technology confesses that the laser gun locates you with one "firing" and then locates you with another subsequent "filing," and calculates your speed depending on how much closer you were the second time. Other than that, there is nothing you can learn about your accuser when you go to court. It says you are guilty, and maybe it's correct and maybe not, but nobody had learn how it came to its conclusion.

Like I say, if you guys get private companies doing government work, you will finally get what you deserve.

[Christien]

Hey guys, thanks for everything so far! I should've been more specific as to what I'm looking for - when I was pulled over, I asked to see the unit, and the officer obliged, bringing me back to the cruiser. He indicated the unit on his dashboard which was reading dashes or hyphens and said something to the effect of 'oh, the unit sometimes automatically clears the speed'. I smelled a fish and asked around and by luck my father happened to be talking to an officer a few days later who said he'd never heard of anything. I'm trying to get the manual to see exactly what the deal is with the unit clearing or resetting itself. Basically, if the unit is showing a dash or blank and there's no printout, I don't see how any court could find evidence that I was speeding. I realize that in real life traffic court doesn't really work on the principal of innocent until proven guilty, but surely there's a limit somewhere. At least he could have shown me the evidence, notice me acknowledge it, then make note of such in his notes. His notes are very detailed (I obtained copies of them under request for disclosure), even noting himself that the unit had cleared itself.

[javadog]

I think the officer was feeding you a line of crap. Clearing itself? I rather doubt it.

I once had a state policeman tell me he had a special radar that didn't set off radar detectors. He had it "tested" by experts and "nobody could figure out why it was special."

Complete horse****.

Fight this one to the death. You'll win.

JR

[Christien]

Well, I don't think he was exactly full of *****, but I don't believe I was going the speed he stated, and without evidence it seems obvious. I am indeed fighting it - that's why I need something to offer as evidence, because no doubt the judge will question my knowledge (or lack thereof) of radar guns.

[legion]

Originally posted by Superman
Yup, it is. Private businesses LOVE to hide documents. They are not subject to public disclosure laws, so if they don't want to provide you with a document.....guess what? And you guys want to hand government work over to private companies. Great......just don't expect to be able to get ANY questions answered.

Now public agencies, that's a different story. Except for small bits of information that are confidential under statute (like your Social Security Number, for example), public agencies are required to provide you access to all records. ALL records. So.....if they have that manual and it's not protected by a specific confidentiality statute, it's yours.

What's not yours is information about HOW the radar and laser guns work. They work using some assumptions and some math, for example, that nobody will disclose to you. At least, not with laser. The developer of that technology confesses that the laser gun locates you with one "firing" and then locates you with another subsequent "filing," and calculates your speed depending on how much closer you were the second time. Other than that, there is nothing you can learn about your accuser when you go to court. It says you are guilty, and maybe it's correct and maybe not, but nobody had learn how it came to its conclusion.

Like I say, if you guys get private companies doing government work, you will finally get what you deserve.

Oh Supe, if only you had a clue. If they do not produce the document, then Christien can effectively say that the LEO cannot prove the radar gun was calibrated to specs as no specs were available. BTW, private companies are subject to subpoena just like everyone else.

Now take the fine governor of Illinois, who has refused for 8 months to make the subpoenas he has been served with public, despite the FOIA and a court ruling stating he must make them public. Hmmm....seems government doesn't have to follow its own rules if it wants to...at least private companies can say they are not subject to those laws.

[javadog]

Originally posted by Christien
Well, I don't think he was exactly full of *****, but I don't believe I was going the speed he stated, and without evidence it seems obvious. I am indeed fighting it - that's why I need something to offer as evidence, because no doubt the judge will question my knowledge (or lack thereof) of radar guns.

I'd wager his radar gun never got a lock on you. You may have been speeding, but the rules generally require that the speed gets locked into the unit. That is intended to prevent error (the unit needs to get more than one reading at the same speed) but in practice, if the unit doesn't achieve a lock, a decent officer won't bother stopping you. Radar isn't infallible. Although the physics are pretty irrefutable, there are things that can give false readings.

JR

[Christien]

Legion, I'm not sure you're exactly right there. I don't think the company who manufactures the gun is under any legal obligation whatsoever to provide me with copies of what would be considered copyrighted intellectual property. Now, I could subpoena it, they'd refuse, then I could get a court order, but 1. a judge would have to find I have reasonable cause to require such a document to the extent that not having access to it would deny me a fair trial and thus prove unconstitutional, and 2. would have to occur in a timely enough fashion for me to receive the documents by Oct. 31. I've already adjourned once, and I'm not sure if they can/will grant me a second adjournment.

Under my disclosure request the court provided a certificate stating the was checked for accuracy by the manufacturer Mar. 26/06. My ticket was Jan. 2/07. So if option 1 (the manual) doesn't pan out, I can also exploit this. I think they're required to be calibrated every week or month, though I'm not sure where to look to determine that.

[legion]

Christien, practically speaking, a judge will just give you the fine no matter what you say or do. At least in the U.S., traffic courts operate under "Guilty until proven innocent--by a large margin".

In any other kind of trial, the manufacturer refusing to provide a manual would be enough to earn you a mistrial.

[Christien]

Yeah, frustrating, isn't it? It's no different in Canada - it's just another goddamn tax. Especially when they're handed out like mine - straight road, no traffic, completely sober - even if I were doing the alleged 141 km/h (about 88 mph), it's the standard speed of traffic, and perfectly safe.

[Highlander179]

I was under the impression that radars aren't the primary evidence and are only to be used as a back up reference to what the officer saw. they are trained to approximate your speed by eye to within a couple miles per hour an are tested frequently(unless its just a towny) for accuracy. in court, the officer will say something to the effect of, "I saw him speeding at x mph and the radar confirmed it."

[Aerkuld]

I had a similar incident last year in my 944 where I was stopped by a State Trooper in a state just to the north of Georgia claiming I was doing 89 in a 70. It was 6am in the morning, dark, on an Interstate in the middle of nowhere, I have no idea at all where the guy came from, and I had out of state plates. I knew I was going over 70 but there was no way on earth that I was going 89 and didn't see the value of arguing on the spot. I ended up going into court to appeal, which was a very strange experience. The 'court house' was in a small rural town and was little more like a village hall, one step away from a shed really, with two or three State Trooper's cars parked outside. I went inside and was greeted by a gentleman who turned out to be the Jugde. I didn't guess that at the time as I didn't expect a Judge to be wearing a pair of worn out shoes, baggy corduroy pants and a plaid shirt. I was shown where the court room was and told to wait until I was called in. When called I entered the court room to be greeted by the Judge, who was now wearing a black cape over the plaid shirt, and the State Trooper who had stopped me. The Judge called me straight over and asked if I wanted to request a jury trial. I said no, but I did wish to question the speed on the ticket. He asked me the speed I was booked for and then asked the State Trooper if it could be dropped to 75 in a 70. This was agreed upon instantly, the fine reduced from nearly $200 to about $70, no points and a thank you. To be honest the 75 was far more realistic in the first place.
If I didn't know that the Police were honest law enforcing officials just trying to do their job I would have wondered if this was a small town revenue generator. I mean, the guy with the out of state plates unlikely to drive out of his way to appear in court and more likely to pay the fine for the higher than actual speed. Of course I'm just paranoid.

Of course, if anyone wants to question why I now run a Radar detector...

[Joeaksa]

Years ago, and I mean something like 15 years ago since I got my last speeding ticket the cop showed me the display to prove that he had tagged me and at what speed.

A cop stopping someone and showing a radar unit with dashed lines then saying that "it cleared itself" is again BS. They can press a button to hold the indicated speed in the window or so I was told by a friend of mine who is a policeman.

Dig futher and this one smells a bit stinky...