Union Bill

[legion]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070626/ap_on_go_co/senate_unions

Senate Republicans on Tuesday blocked a bill that would allow labor unions to organize workplaces without a secret ballot election.
...
Unions complain that employers have greater access to workers during secret ballot campaigns and claim that corporate threats, intimidation and eventual firings have become common for union activists. By dragging out the election process, companies often succeed in wearing down union enthusiasm, they add.

Employers contend that union recognition elections prevent just the reverse from happening. Using only a card check system, they argue, would enable union organizers to use their knowledge of who did and didn't sign cards to intimidate reluctant workers.

Having seen a "scab" had his tires slashed and windows broken when I lived in Peoria as a kid, you can tell how I think a public ballot would turn out...

[Jim Richards]

You think based on the anecdotes of your life. We already knew that. What about taking a big picture view? Is there a middle ground that protects workers from employers and non-union workers from union workers? I'm just asking...

edit: let me start you off with one star, just so you can earn your way up the ladder of thread success. No free rides.

[legion]

Originally posted by Jim Richards
You think based on the anecdotes of your life.

You don't?

Originally posted by Jim Richards
Is there a middle ground that protects workers from employers and non-union workers from union workers? I'm just asking...

How about labor regulations that are already in place?

[Jim Richards]

Originally posted by legion
You don't?

No, I don't.

[Hugh R]

I had to join a union when I worked for a governmental agency in a former life. I applied for a "Supervisor" position within the union ranks and the Union fought me because the job required 5 years experience. Management decided I had 5 years, but the union fought me because it was 5 years total experience, not within the union. So the organization that supposedly represented me, didn't. Having said that, I believe the union system in Hollywood works very well. Your guaranteed an eight hour day, that's it. As a result, people show up on time, sober for the most part, are polite and work hard. Mainly because the production company doesn't have to hire you again tomorrow. BTW, I'm management.

[legion]

Originally posted by Jim Richards
No, I don't.

So you have no short or long-term memory? Interesting.

[Jim Richards]

Illogical question based on my previous reponse. What you should've asked was, "You mean that you use other information, beyond your personal experience to formulate opinions?" At which point, I would answer, "Why yes, I do." Now, I'm getting tired of having a conversation with myself, so, please carry on with your narrow views of the world you live in.

[notfarnow]

Originally posted by legion


Having seen a "scab" had his tires slashed and windows broken when I lived in Peoria as a kid, you can tell how I think a public ballot would turn out...

+1

Vandalism and thuggery are intimidation tactics that were used against me during a strike a few years ago (I am a manager with no direct reports).

My wife really liked being afraid in her own house, having people follow me home, thugs sneaking around at night with paint cans, or slashing our tires.

After the third or forth incident, they posted a security guard in my home every night for 5 weeks.



They are really, really lucky I never caught them.

[legion]

No, your statement that you do not use your personal experiences in making decisions is patently false. You would have never learned how to walk or read, and you certainly would not be a functional member of society. All people learn from their mistakes and use them in future decisions...or they die young.

[Superman]

Originally posted by legion

How about labor regulations that are already in place?

Here (and only here ) I agree with Legion. The protections already in place are sufficient. What is not sufficient is interpretation and enforcement of those existing protections.

Hypothetically, if a very conservative "administration" were to take the White House and if that "administration" also saw fit to place and displace its cronies with very-conservative agendas into positions such as the National Labor Relations Board......and if those "administration" cronies made it clear they were going to side with management against Labor even when the plain language of the statute is impossible to be interpreted that way........then Labor would begin to feel as though it needs to modify statutes in order to restore a level playing field. In that hypothetical example, you'd have some very liberal legislation to deal with as a direct result of deliberately misinterpreting laws and attempting to cram a conservative agenda down industry's throat. So........you'd have the "administration" to blame for the repair jobs that get done to the statutes. Hypothetically.

[Kevin G.]

I look at company management and union management in the same view - they both exist solely to screw the workers.

[legion]

Supe, that would never happen.

We all know that federal agencies like the EPA or...say the Department of Education are not staffed by people primarily of one political party whom use their position to push their agenda...often to the detriment of the country as a whole.

[Superman]

We know that public servants are commonly passionate about their mission and mandate. I have reported that my former colleagues at our state labor department are indeed passionate about protecting workers from illegal employment practices. The trick is for statutes to be clear about what those agencies can and cannot do. Unfortunately, that places a legislative body in charge. In Utopia, they also have legislative bodies but the difference is that citizens are informed and involved......so that the view and agendas are balanced. It may be quite some time before America moves into this level of maturity.

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by Superman
We know that public servants are commonly passionate about their mission and mandate.

No....we don't. It makes no sense unless you're trying to tell me that government workers are cut from a superior class of humans.

No, they are indeed anything but passionate.

[Tobra]

Originally posted by Jim Richards
You think based on the anecdotes of your life. We already knew that. What about taking a big picture view? Is there a middle ground that protects workers from employers and non-union workers from union workers? I'm just asking...

edit: let me start you off with one star, just so you can earn your way up the ladder of thread success. No free rides.

Show me someone who does not base their decisions on their life experiences and I will show you someone who makes the same mistakes over and over and over and over and over again.

Pretty funny to respond, then when your answer is misleading(actually false, but benefit of the doubt given), disparage the question

Secret ballot is only way to do this, there is your middle ground

[Superman]

We've been over this before, Len. You bring the greediest, most self-serving corporate ladder climbers to the contest and I will bring some of my colleagues who protect working men and women by investigating employers who are on the wrong side of child labor, minimum wage and overtime laws. I like my team's chances of showing you guys what motivation really looks like. This conclusion that fear and money are the best motivators has been disproven by HUNDREDS of organizational behavior studies. Ask ANY professional compensation analyst whether money is the most powerful motivator. You will not be able to find one that agrees with that conclusion.

But yeah, I know the stories of the folks at the windows of the licensing agencies. There are friendly, fast and helpful people there, and there are some freeloaders. Just like at IBM. Halliburton. Exxon.

[Superman]

And again........one more time........it is the squeezing of operating budgets out of sheer hatred of government that causes government offices to be understaffed and waiting lines to be long. Your conservative legislators have been dutifully doing what you sent them there to do.......they have been cutting the budgets of government offices. It is clear who we should thank for that.

[lendaddy]

It's a matter of motivation. No motivation=no results.

Government workers have no motivation either positive or negative to go the extra mile.

You cannot deny human nature.

[Hugh R]

Supe:

To quote Hawkeye Pierce from MASH the three basic emotions are "Greed, Fear and Greed" I think the average American, like me, is focused on himself. I went through the other stages, and now my main concern is me. NO ONE is going to take care of me in my old age except ME. If Social Security is there great, at 1 or 2 percent miserable return ROI, fine, but I'm on my own. If you think anything else, your naive.

[Tobra]

Supes, there is just so little veracity in what you have portrayed as simple facts here it is astounding.

You totally contradict yourself in the last two posts, not driven by money, but cutting budgets is root of all evil, bit of a dichotomy.

In my experience in California, far and away the biggest group of freeloaders, laziest, least interested in customer satisfaction people have been state workers. But that would be basing my opinion on direct observation, and that is bad