snipe, he's not saying they're wrong. He's saying that it's a shame that we have a FUFARed society that leads us to feel the need for this level of personal protection.

Thanks for posting that link, as it DOES verify an instance in Texas of a 17yo boy killing two armed intruders, thereby validating the original posters point entirely. ;)

There's simply no way i'd "give up my guns" where i live even if i was of the mind that armed self-defense was not an enumerated right. If we ever had some sort of disaster or enduring power outages here, i'd most likely need every round of the 500 i have stockpiled for a 'just in case' event.

I fully expect that half this city would burn. :-/

I don't think he was suggesting that, unless I'm mistaken.

Congratulations guys;

This is about the most civil, pleasant and informed discussion on this subject I have seen. Clearly this is a “hot button” topic for many.

Clearly here in the USA a firearm has been a necessary tool for survival from the 18th century wilderness through the “wild west.” After the era of gunfighters and a spat of Gangsters in the probation era, firearms were still mostly for sport, military service and almost as an aside for police work.

With the advent of “cheep” guns (Saturday Night Specials), everything changed.

As I was growing up and as a young adult, most police never used a firearm other than for practice. As I learned firearms as a pre-teen (‘40s-’50), there was only hunting and target practice. I never even saw a “human silhouette” target – only animals and bulls-eye. I only hunted birds, fowl, rabbits and rodents, mostly at home in Kentucky but some in the Chesapeake East and Mountain West.

When I graduated from college, I owned a .22 pump that I used from age 6, a .22 bolt action eventually fitted with a good Redfield scope, a Winchester Model 12 20-gauge that I used hunting from age 8, a Parker Brothers 12-gauge side-by-side field gun, a 30-06 Colt-Sauber fine rifle, a Remington 30-06 bolt action. All other than the Colt-Sauber are pre-WWII. There is also my dad’s WWII M1 .30 carbine. Note that there are no hand guns.

I and my two younger brothers learned proper handling from a VERY early age. There is no such thing as an unloaded gun. No matter what you treat every firearm is if it is loaded and ready to shoot. There was never a loaded gun in the house. The firearms and ammunition were (and are) always in separate locked cabinets. Even today I disable, lock, disassemble everything and spread the parts among two cabinets – even the percussion muzzle loaders.

In the ‘60s and ’70, I bought some weapons – a S&W .44 Mag “Dirty Harry” long barrel. Great fun with targets, a rubber grip and .44 Specials. It probably has had 8000 rounds through it. Occasionally I take it camping when bear and mountain lions are prevalent. I think shooting into the ground (with a Mag load) would scare off any animal.

I also have a nice Colt 9 mm “Officers Special” (circa ’75) – never fired.

I had Chris understanding all this from an early age (muzzle loading at age 7 seated with legs crossed with a tripod .50 caliber percussion “carbine”.)


I want to find a new pair of sequential S/N Colt manufacture 1911A1s with all the tools and manuals. I’ll get Chris to build a presentation case.

I think the most important I want is a pre-WWII Model 12 12-gauge. This is the quintessential field gun for waterfowl.


So, that is my firearm experiences. Sorta like collecting Porsches. You can take them to “events”, you can enjoy the technology and history and more. You can also give the keys to an unqualified drunk or allow it to be stolen by criminals and watch the resulting carnage.

Best,
Grady

Most gun owners I know, myself included, are pretty confident in the fact that some punishment may fall upon them if and when they have to/forced to use their gun to defend themsleves or their families and they are fine with that. If someone actually forces me to kill them with my gun to defend my home or my family the least of my concern is going to be the results of a trial a year or two later that may end up sending me to jail.
To the Swedish guy who started this thread...I do not at all expect you to understand the ways or the mindsets of America and if you had similar midsets you would probably already be living here like some of your other well liked countrymen who live in the USA. It is simple....we live here b/c of who we are and you live there b/c of who you are so stop second guessing us and be ever thankfull that people like us have been here to bail your asses out of the jams that we have in the past and that people of this county will always be there to bail your asses out again if need be.
Who the hell has ever helped us out of a jam no one that is who. You would rather set over there and throw little verbal stones and comments at this country and our goverment but then when you need us it is like....So.....when is America coming to bail us out????????

Well that is a bit though :(

Anyway, your evil american media hit us the other year with the hideous American Choppers :eek: so frankly i think we are even.

http://www.lasvegasvegas.com/americanchoppers.jpg


Still, we do have secret weapons, like be able to cut supply of blond blue eyed girls or even worse produce even more IKEA furniture that is impossible to assemble.

Your choice.

Hey duuude ,

Don't stop the Ikea , my wife would have a heart attack and so would half the college kids in this country. As to the blonde blued eyed woman comment , you can stop production anytime you want we produce enough ourselves to keep the mall's here happy, and if not there is always Ms Clairol for the others...

America is a " gun culture " always has been , always will be. If we did'nt have guns to use we would adopt something else like a good claw hammer, they would get the job done but just take more effort.

Personally I carry a gun every day, it is a part of my job. I also collect historical firearms as well, mostly military related everything from handguns to crew served weapons, it is a hobby and believe it or not a good investment in most cases.

Sweden has a long history of manufacture of some of the worlds finest firearms, albet for military use.

The Bofor series of light cannon, Gustav series of light anti armor weapons, as well as many others.

I personally own a couple of Swede's and they are great, a Husqvarna M-40 Lahti 9mm pistol and a M41B Mauser Sniper.

Todd SmileWavy

Hi Todd!

Oh yeah, another Swedish specialty, double standard.
There is a lot of talk around here about the bad things about guns etc....... but at the same time we are the largest exporter of weapons (per capita that is) :rolleyes:
Anyway, i think i read somewhere that we also do have more guns per capita than US, but most of them (like +99%) is rifles used for hunting. Lots of hunters here similar to Canada i would imagine.

And yes, the difference in point of view is of course cultural and historical.....long story SmileWavy

Happy shooting ;)

Izze, no.. not american choppers!! leave them out of this!

Nothing wrong with guns, it is people with guns. I sorta like pheasant hunting, but fishing is okay too.

You are of a different culture Marcus, but I guess that is the point.

On call, is it a full moon?

I do not really want to get hung up on the debate about guns, but will say that I have the same point of view as my fellow Scandinavians.

What I would like to say as a Norwegian is that the Swedish neutrality was of great strategic significance to Hitler as it gave him free passage to Norway. We lost a lot of people protecting our borders from Hitler, and eventually failed :(
I will say that Sweden did come to our defence in the end and assisted us in building up the Norwegian forces again...
http://www.norway.org/history/after1814/ww2/ww2.htm

Yeah, CG is nice tank weapon. Are american forces still using Carl Gustaf? It's been in production since forever...I believe britts still lug it around.

Guns are deeply rooted in the American pysche. It is the Wild West history, the self-reliant man living off the land thing, and also the defiant revolutionaries fighting the British. I have been a shooter since childhood, own a fair number of guns, have a concealed carry permit, am a NRA member, and strongly support the right of lawful ciizens to own and carry guns.

I realize that in the USA of 2007, the fact is that very few people are living off the land, and that both the Wild West and the Revolutionary War are long past. And I realize that the rate of gun crime in the USA is far higher than in any other civilized, developed country. So, to be honest, if we could magically and permanently and with complete effectiveness eliminate all guns from the USA, from the hands of criminals and lawful citizens alike, excepting only the police and military, then I would probably support it. I would reluctantly choose zero guns over widespread guns.

But zero guns is not a realistic possibility in the USA - not given appx 200MM guns in circulation and the ease of smuggling things into the country (illegal drugs get in just fine, for example). Any attempt to achieve zero guns would only mean taking guns away from lawful citizens - like me - while leaving them in the hands of criminals. That, to me, would be a worse situation than the present one. So, I think the status quo is the better of the realistic alternatives.

As Grady commented it has been a nice, civilized thread - despite the topic. Thanks for all your insightful posts. Much obliged!

I think my point was more of a general sensation of feeling completely safe all my life without any guns around. Different roots, historical heritage and culture. No value attached as such. Just different.

It would probably have sounded more strange if I started out claiming I had never owned or even been close to a mobile phone all my life..

I don't have all the guns I own to feel safe, I enjoy collecting them, just as I do with my BMX bikes (really, at 41, an 30 year old bike isn't going to hold up to well under me) and Porsches (like there are so many places I can drive 150mph:D
I go to the track to drive fast, the range to shoothttp://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/ar15.gif

I have been known to set up a Hot Wheels track and play with some of the Hot Wheels I collect though:D

I got this in an email today

FIREARMS REFRESHER COURSE

1. An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.
2. A gun in the hand is better than a cop on the phone.
3. Colt: The original point and click interface.
4. Gun control is not about guns; it's about control.
5. If guns are outlawed, can we use swords?
6. If guns cause crime, then pencils cause misspelled words.
7. "Free" men do not ask permission to bear arms.
8. If you don't know your rights you don't have any.
9. Those who trade liberty for security have neither.
10. The United States Constitution (c) 1791. All Rights reserved.
11. What part of "shall not be infringed" do you not understand?
12. The Second Amendment is in place in case the politicians ignore the others.
13. 64,999,987 firearms owners killed no one yesterday.
14. Guns only have two enemies; rust and politicians.
15. Know guns, know peace, know safety. No guns, no peace, no safety.
16. You don't shoot to kill; you shoot to stay alive.
17. 911 - government sponsored Dial-a-Prayer.
18. Assault is a behavior, not a device.
19. Criminals love gun control -- it makes their jobs safer.
20. If guns cause crime, then matches cause arson.
21. Only a government that is afraid of its citizens tries to control them.
22. You only have the rights you are willing to fight for.
23. Enforce the "gun control laws" we ALREADY have, don't make more.
24. &nbs p;When you remove the people's right to bear arms, you create slaves.
25. The American Revolution would never have happened with gun control.
26. "A government of the people, by the people, for the people..."

In the US, military policy is foreign policy. In the US heartland laws are sometimes a necessary evil controlling citizens. In many parts of the US if anyone screws with another's family social service PD will probably not be necessary.

different strokes.........

You gotta love this

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,288737,00.html

Texas State Lawmaker Opposing Deadly Force Bill Shoots Would-Be Thief

HOUSTON — A state lawmaker who opposed a bill giving Texans stronger right to defend themselves with deadly force pulled a gun and shot a man he says was trying to steal copper wiring from a construction site, police said Monday.

Rep. Borris Miles told police he was fixing a leak on the second floor of the Houston house he's building Sunday night when he heard a noise downstairs and saw two men trying to steal the copper. After Miles confronted the pair, one of the men threw a pocketknife at him, Houston Police spokesman Victor Senties.

Miles, a former law enforcement officer, shot the man in the left leg, police said. The wounded suspect was being treated at a Houston hospital. Police were trying to identify the other suspect.

Charges of aggravated robbery are pending against the wounded suspect, Senties said.

Police said Miles, who is in his freshman term, is licensed to carry a concealed weapon. No charges have been filed against Miles, Senties said.

Miles, a Democrat, voted against a bill that gives Texans stronger legal right to defend themselves with deadly force in their homes, vehicles, and workplaces. The so-called "castle doctrine," passed by the Legislature this year, states that a person has no duty to retreat from an intruder before using deadly force. The law goes into effect Sept. 1.

People who oppose the right of the individual to defend themselves generally want the masses to be dependent on the government for self-protection. If the government is the sole provider of protection for the individual, they are more likely to give up other rights to remain secure.