flat tax\Guliani

[billyboy]

Several dozen people jeered when Giuliani, in response to a question, said he would not be in favor of a flat tax.

"I have to study it some more," the former New York City mayor said. "I don't think a flat tax is realistic change for America. Our economy is dependent upon the way our tax system operates."Our economy is dependent upon the way our tax system operates." What does this mean? A bunch of tax preparations service companies and accounting firms, along with the IRS, would have to lay off some people? Our economy is dependent on the tax system???!!wtf

[legion]

Guiliana is a socialist.

He is conservative by NY standards, where many are flat-out communists. By national standards, he is barely to the right of Hillary and Teddy.

[ChrisBennet]

The graduated income tax does a couple of things:
- Make the more fortunate pay more than their share.
- Influence the economy. If you want people to save for their own retirement, you let them put off paying taxes on it (401K). If you want people to live in their own homes, you give homeowners a break on their taxes.

If I was a rich person, I would love a flat tax.

I don't think people really have a problem with the graduated tax, I think what people object to are all the loophole written into the tax code to benefit special interests.

The flat tax is a simple solution to a not so simple problem.

-Chris

[the]

We are way too far down the road to a welfare state to start a flat tax system. Maybe next time.

[nota]

flat tax is unfair
but maybe less unfair then the current fat cats paying way less tax then the workers do

ie capital gains at the 15% or under rate
vs 15% SS PLUS income tax on top of that for joe lunchbucket

btw if they kill estate tax too Bill Gates's BILLIONS will never be taxed [as it is mostly in unsold stock holdings]
vs every red cent joe lunchbucket ever earned was taxed under two forms of tax SS + income!!!!!!!!!

I want a tax on the rich and only the rich like the original law

[Seahawk]

Originally posted by nota
flat tax is unfair
but maybe less unfair then the current fat cats paying way less tax then the workers do

ie capital gains at the 15% or under rate
vs 15% SS PLUS income tax on top of that for joe lunchbucket

btw if they kill estate tax too Bill Gates's BILLIONS will never be taxed [as it is mostly in unsold stock holdings]
vs every red cent joe lunchbucket ever earned was taxed under two forms of tax SS + income!!!!!!!!!

I want a tax on the rich and only the rich like the original law

Walk me through this please. Prove how a progressive tax is somehow unfair.
Show your math.

[nota]

the richest pay only 15% on capital gains
the super rich like bill gates make almost all their wealth
thru capitals gains not from the few million they get paid
btw did the no tax on dividends pass?
thats another way the rich pay less then workers

there is no SS tax on dividends or capital gains eathor
and it is capped so it seldom really bites the rich

but the worker pays both SS and income tax
or a higher rate then the rich pay when combined
as very very few true rich earn a big income
it is all from capital gains on stock and stock options
no tax bonds, and other low or no tax tricks

[Seahawk]

Originally posted by nota
the richest pay only 15% on capital gains
the super rich like bill gates make almost all their wealth
thru capitals gains not from the few million they get paid
btw did the no tax on dividends pass?
thats another way the rich pay less then workers

there is no SS tax on dividends or capital gains eathor
and it is capped so it seldom really bites the rich

but the worker pays both SS and income tax
or a higher rate then the rich pay when combined
as very very few true rich earn a big income
it is all from capital gains on stock and stock options
no tax bonds, and other low or no tax tricks

Everybody pays 15% on CG...and who are these, "workers"?

Your reasoning and math are shallow. I work for a living, btw, so the link applies:

Tax Rates

So, I earn more, I pay more. My, what a scam.

[VincentVega]

No kidding, cap gains are cap gains.

I dont have the answer, but before everyone falls in love with a flat tax, what is the rate? Are there still deductions? Too many questions unanswered.

[Rearden]

Originally posted by nota
the richest pay only 15% on capital gains
the super rich like bill gates make almost all their wealth
thru capitals gains not from the few million they get paid
btw did the no tax on dividends pass?
thats another way the rich pay less then workers

there is no SS tax on dividends or capital gains eathor
and it is capped so it seldom really bites the rich

but the worker pays both SS and income tax
or a higher rate then the rich pay when combined
as very very few true rich earn a big income
it is all from capital gains on stock and stock options
no tax bonds, and other low or no tax tricks

Nota, so you are a worker. How does the company you work for get its capital? I know you have no respect (you call them "fools") for people who raise capital or purchase equity/debt, but do these people enable your company to exist? And, therefore, enable you to be a worker?

[skipdup]

Also, don't forget, capital gains have already been taxed at least once. It's 15% plus all the normal taxes when the funds were initially earned.

[billyboy]

Since this has diverged from my original question of how the economy is dependent on the tax system, I'll throw out another. How about national sales tax instead of income tax?

[RoninLB]

It's considered almost impossible to completely change our tax structure. It's easy for the new countries of E Europe or even Ireland but the USA.. nota

He should discuss a general policy on making our economy more competitive world wide. That would make the Dem centralized command and control political hacks nuts.




"Mortgage credit markets aside, the main economic worry in the near term is Congress. The legislative pressure is all on the side of anti-growth policies -- hostility to bilateral free-trade pacts with Latin America and Asia, tax increases on private equity and high incomes, and perhaps a trade slap at China.

President Bush has signaled that he'll veto the worst ideas, including any tax increases or excessive spending. But a President with a 30% approval rating may not be able to stop everything. The best we can probably hope for through the 2008 election is a virtuous gridlock that lets the economic vitality so evident this week continue."

[nota]

Originally posted by skipdup
Also, don't forget, capital gains have already been taxed at least once. It's 15% plus all the normal taxes when the funds were initially earned.

sometimes, and others NO

lets take bill gates
he has made billions
mostly never taxed one red cent
as most of his net worth is in MS stock
that he created, with minimum investment
so he only pays tax on stock sold at 15%
no or very minimum taxed on unsold wealth
earned thru the MS CORP and free perks tooo
but joe worker pays tax on everything he has earned

bush planned to drop both any tax on dividends
and kill the death tax too
so most of bill gates BILLIONS
would never ever be taxed one red cent
and some dare to call our system progressive
and also claim the rich are ''over taxed''
I bet bill gates has paid less then 1% of his wealth in tax

[RoninLB]

Rudy is more business friendly than Bush. Even Time mag praised NYC in 2000 as a perfect example of a successful renaissance. Rudy managed the whole process.


Obama courted the NEA last week promising them $$B in more Fed support. He makes Hillary look centralist.

[Rearden]

Originally posted by nota
sometimes, and others NO

lets take bill gates
he has made billions
mostly never taxed one red cent
as most of his net worth is in MS stock
that he created, with minimum investment
so he only pays tax on stock sold at 15%
no or very minimum taxed on unsold wealth
earned thru the MS CORP and free perks tooo
but joe worker pays tax on everything he has earned

bush planned to drop both any tax on dividends
and kill the death tax too
so most of bill gates BILLIONS
would never ever be taxed one red cent
and some dare to call our system progressive
and also claim the rich are ''over taxed''
I bet bill gates has paid less then 1% of his wealth in tax

Most of Bill Gates' wealth is unrealized. Of course he hasn't paid personal tax on that. Microsoft pays over $5 billion per year in federal income tax. Is that not enough for you?

[RoninLB]

redistribution of wealth from higher brackets to lower is inefficient to a dynamite economy. A purist could argue that businesses shouldn't be taxed at all.

[berettafan]

nota- C corps (such as those that comprise much of Bill Gates' wealth) pay a LOT of tax and they pay it twice! The corp pays tax on it's income and then when the owner wants his cut he pays tax on the dividends AND the corp doesn't get a deduction for those dividends that are paid out!

regarding cap gains if everything is so skewed towards the rich man why do lower income folks get an even cheaper 10% cap gain rate? and why do we have AMT which, in essence, says 'if you have too much low 'specialty rate' income we will take away those 'special rates' and tax your ass to death?

and why do we have estate taxes which give estates of less than $2m* a free pass but tax everything above that at heavy rates?

and perhaps we should talk about EIC. we actually pay people to maintain low income levels and have kids! how is that pandering to the rich?

*note this figure changes periodically

[cairns]

There are a three basic rules to NOTA economics:

1. Anyone with more money than NOTA is a robber baron.
2. NOTA is one the millions of oppressed "workers" who are being robbed by the "man".
3. If someone has two dollars and NOTA only has one that someone must give NOTA 50 cents so they are equal.

[RoninLB]

Nancy Pelosi's early remarks



"When asked about the fact that over 80% of all Americans have investments in mutual funds, retirement funds, 401K's, and the stock market she replied "That may be true, but probably only 5% account for 90% of all these investment dollars. That's just more "trickle down" economics, claiming that if a corporation is successful that everyone from the CEO to the floor sweeper benefit from higher wages and job security, which is ridiculous. How much of this 'trickle down' ever gets to the unemployed and minorities in our county? None, and that's the tragedy of these stock market highs."

"We democrats are going to address this issue after the election when we take control of the congress. We will return to the 60% to 80% tax rates on the rich and we will be able to take at least 30% of all current lower Federal income tax payers off the roles and increase government income substantially. We need to work toward the goal of equalizing income in our country and at the same time limiting the amount the rich can invest."

When asked how these new tax dollars would be spent, she replied "We need to raise the standard of living of our poor, unemployed, and minorities. For example, we have an estimated 12 million illegal immigrants in our country who need our help along with millions of unemployed minorities. Stock market windfall profits taxes could go a long ways to guarantee these people the standard of living they would like to have as 'Americans'."