Since when does money offset sin?

[MotoSook]

I was raised Buddhist guys, and as most Asian Buddhist men are urged to do, I spent time in a temple. I learned that some monks are just there to freeload and feel important. There are some that I highly respect as they appear to be truely selfless. However, Buddhist temples and the persons who run them (the monks don't always control the business end of the temple) are another matter. Temples vary in how they conduct their business, de-centralized.

The temple I spent time in had their treasury drained by a sect of board members (for lack of a better term), and that sect then started a competing Temple in another town. There is bad blood, but the faithful overlook this and the money aspect.

Growing up, I saw the greed aspect of the religion and could never wrap my mind around the practice of giving money that my financially poor parents embraced. Just like other religions there is an underlying tone of "salvation" in giving money or performing other acts of "merit."

I practice my own religion now. It's a combination of Buddhism and Christianity (more Buddhism)...but I would not say that I am either. Mostly, I live by the principals of honor and respect that my parents instilled in me. In the end, all religions have the same moral message, but you can't practice it in a group of any size and expect that there won't be any need to fund the group.

[Rot 911]

Good post Souk!

[The Gaijin]

Percentage wise - I do not think Catholic Priests are any better or worse than school teachers, medical professionals, scout leaders or any others entrusted with the young in our society. Just good old fashioned anti-Catholic bias coming out, combined with more modern anti-Christian sentiments. A celibate priesthood with vows of poverty? In this MTV and People magazine driven popular culture - what could be more strange than that? They are the perfect target. (I am not RC by the way..)

[Christien]

I couldnt' disagree more that this is just anti-catholicism. There's a real problem there, and the church knows it. It's a catholic problem, not a christian problem. Percentage-wise, yes, catholic priests ARE worse than school teachers. Full stop.

We don't see kids in the school system getting sexually abused at the rate we do within the clergy, or even with other Christian sects which permit their spiritual leaders to marry and have sex. Putting vulnerable kids together with people forced to live an unnatural lifestyle of celibacy and you're just begging for problems. Teachers on the other hand are allowed to marry and have sex - normal. Sure, there's abuse within the school system, but it's nowhere near as rampant as it is within the church. Furthermore, when it's discovered within the school system, the offender is very quickly turned over to the police and is dealt with properly. Within the catholic church there is a systematic method of dealing with sexual offenders, whereby they're moved and hidden, and very frequently put in a position where they're able (and do) re-offend. I'm not just guessing or surmising here - I've read the documents that deal with this (my father is a lawyer and represented plaintiffs against the local diocese (and won, handily).

[Dan in Pasadena]

Originally posted by legion
...I don't think it is necessary the Catholic Churches fault. What is the Church's fault is how they handled the situation once this became apparent.

legion - Hey, we are agreeing again! What the hell?

Couldn't agree more. The handling of this dating back decades is shameful. I totally understand the desire to sweep it under the rug - who would want to cop to it? (no pun intended) and maybe they could have if the priests were just drinking too much sacramental wine or buggering the sheep... but not molesting parishioners and children! Not understandable and not forgiveable...on this Earth.

If the Church of God doesn't say that molesting children is a crime and must be dealt with by BOTH the laws of God AND the laws of man, who should say so? I am so disappointed and so sorry for the good people who have devoted their lives to something they believed that strongly in.

[The Gaijin]

Originally posted by Christien
Furthermore, when it's discovered within the school system, the offender is very quickly turned over to the police and is dealt with properly.

Within the catholic church there is a systematic method of dealing with sexual offenders, whereby they're moved and hidden

We would like to think so...

And this systematic system is still in place?

Guys - I am going by what I have read. This is an exposive issue and the popular media has us all convinced that this is a Catholic problem. I think that it is a problem across society.

[Dan in Pasadena]

Originally posted by Christien
.........Putting vulnerable kids together with people forced to live an unnatural lifestyle of celibacy and you're just begging for problems.

Christien,
I'd like to disagree with you that this is somehow a Catholic problem........but I can't. I think there clearly IS a problem with sex scandals and the clergy in general, but ironically I can't think of the last time I heard about a Cathloic priest having an affair with a parishoner or getting caught with a prostitute, etc. I'm sure it HAS happened... you just don't seem to hear that about them.

But as to the idea that becoming a priest and taking a vow of celibacy somehow MAKES you into a pedophile? Or sets the stage for you to become a pedophile? I don't buy it. Pedophilia is the result of a deep and nearly incurable psychological illness. You MIGHT be able to drive me do things I would otherwise never do if I were in prison for 30 years (gulp, hard to imagine) but you'd never make me molest children and especially not if I were not in prison and freely surrounded by women parishoners and nuns who ALSO took a vow of celibabcy - and I don't hear about any of THEM molesting anyone. Your theory doesn't wash.

[Christien]

Well, I can't say I have all the details in front of me, so maybe there's a bit more to it, but the theory does indeed wash with the courts. That's why there have been so many huge payouts lately. I know the issue of whether the system of the church turns one into a pedophile vs. providing a place for already-pedophiles to flourish was dealt with in at least one of the trials, and I don't remember.

Just because YOU might not be moved to such actions when placed within the confines of strict rules doesn't mean someone else might not. Remember, the priesthood draws a very certain type of individual. I don't mean for a second to suggest that it draws someone who's a pedophile, or even has the slightest tendencies. But it draws someone with a personality different from that of most men.

I was looking for something to back up what I'm saying, and couldn't find it, but did come across this interview with one of the lawyers at my dad's firm, which discusses the systematic protection of known abusers. It gets into that about halfway through. Remember, the lawyers have subpoenaed and consulted documents from the Vatican down to the bishops and diocese that document this - it's not just accusations.

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/goodfather/interview_talach.html

[widebody911]

Right now, most people have the impression that there is a bit of pedophile in every priest.

Well, there's definitely a little bit of priest in every altar boy...

[GO DAWG GO]

"Guys - I am going by what I have read. This is an exposive issue and the popular media has us all convinced that this is a Catholic problem. I think that it is a problem across society".

Gaijin,

Yes to a degree, you are correct! Society as a whole has a percentage of child molesters. Problem is....If society has .001% of pedophiles statistically. The archdiocese has 10% which is a 1000 times more likely to endanger one's children than society as a whole.

But, I completely believe there is an attack on Christianity well perpetrated by the media, ACLU and other left leaning organizations. Because of this, however, The clergy and archdiocese and the protestant church should know and realize that it is under scrutiny and protect its entire reputation by dealing with these people harshly. Not cover and harbor these individuals. What Roger Mahoney has allowed is dreadful and needs to be exposed. These pedophiles have lurked about the Catholic church with impunity far too long. $600 million is a confession to the crime and proves that Roger Mahoney was cognizant of these crimes and needs to be punished in a court of law. The Church will heal in time if it reveals the truth and the consequences are just for their behavior.
Christians are forgiveng people. They will be forgiven if action is taken now and it is swift. If not, you can expect the church to implode spiritually and become less and less of an moral entity.


Bob

[cmccuist]

There are about 40,000 priests in the US. About 200 or so have been named, convicted, outed, identified etc. That's about 0.5%. Not sure how that corresponds to homosexuality/pedophilia in general, but those are the numbers.

What makes it particularly heinous (if anything can be more heinous than what's happening) is that you would typically go to a priest for spiritual guidance and comfort and the homosexuals and pedophiles take advantage of that.

[stevepaa]

Craig +1 The relative occurrence of this within the priesthood is small, but the impact is horrendous because of the manner in which it has been handled.

[Chuck Moreland]

Originally posted by legion
My theory on this scandal is this:

I think many pedophiles are attracted to the Catholic priesthood because you take a vow of cellibacy. I think that many, who fear or carry guilt because of their attractions, feel that becoming a priest will MAKE them foresake their urges.

I think this is exactly right. Others may believe that becoming a priest will some how compensate for their actions.

Even more astonishing was the churches initial position when this all broke. As I recall they said they would handle it withing the church and only tolerate 1 (or was it 2) molestations by a given priest before taking action! Come again?

That position showed the problem was both rampant, accepted, and well know within the catholic church.

Were did the $660M come from? The congregation. And their money is being used to pay a settlement for the priests that molested their own children.

Were is the outrage within the congregation?

Every priest involved belongs in prison. Every person who was aware and kept silent should be outed, tossed out of the church, and face criminal charges as appropriate.

[The Gaijin]

Originally posted by Chuck Moreland


Were did the $660M come from? The congregation. And their money is being used to pay a settlement for the priests that molested their own children.

Were is the outrage within the congregation?

I am sure their is outrage. Just because it does not play out on Entertainment Tonight or in the LA Times does not mean it is not there.

[Superman]

Originally posted by legion
My theory on this scandal is this:

I think many pedophiles are attracted to the Catholic priesthood because you take a vow of cellibacy. I think that many, who fear or carry guilt because of their attractions, feel that becoming a priest will MAKE them foresake their urges. I also think that many of them realize all to late that they spend a lot of time around children, and the temptation is far too great.

(For a similar theory, do a Google search on the relationship between pedophiles and Star Trek.)

So, there are a lot of pedophiles in the priesthood, and I don't think it is necessary the Catholic Churches fault. What is the Church's fault is how they handled the situation once this became apparent.

This post by Legion is unusually lucid. Agree completely.

Christian and a few others are FOS. Christian, you actually have absolutely NO IDEA what the proportion of pedophiles is in:

The Catholic priesthood
Education
Society in general

Your remarks and conclusions are worse than invalid. You read the stories and watch the news vignettes and draw entirely unreliable and inaccurate conclusions. If there had been a worldwide organization that teaches school kids, and if (instead of the Catholic Church) that organization had been exposed for pedophilia and if the news media had been BLASTING that organization with sensationalized stories for the last several years, then you'd conclude that organization has a higher proportion of pedophiles than the Catholic Church.

However.....I would agree with those who suspect that the priesthood for various reasons including and especially Legion's observations attracts pedophiles. And I would also agree that the damage potential by pedophile priests is colossal. Yes, this is a problem.

And finally, those of you who are continually looking for excuses to diss organized religion will of course jump on this one. There are many others, and you will surely use a "rotation" of justifications that includes this.

Those of you who are expecting to find a religion managed and operated by humans who are free of sin.......will be delighted to also recieve information about a nearly unbelievable real estate purchase opportunity in sunny Florida. PM me for details.

[teenerted1]

Originally posted by The Gaijin
A celibate priesthood with vows of poverty?(I am not RC by the way..)

another non-rc making generalizations


most priest don't take a vow of poverty...
how else would our paster been able to afford his golf club memberships.

some monastic orders and most nuns do take vows of poverty. but you average American priest isn't living too badly.

my personal experience has always been positive with priests i have known...but there are bad apples in all of society.

[Tobra]

Originally posted by legion
No, but some lawyers got rich.

and nobody had to tell the truth in public, what about the criminal charges, RICO violations and whatnot?

I went to Catholic HS, and have no doubt there were at least two pedophiles living in the seminary. The worst, most evil, cold hearted individual person I have ever met was a Catholic priest. This is a bigger problem than people think in society in general, and in the Catholic clergy specifically.

The Church is this huge, powerful, tax-exempt entity with practically limitless resources. If they feel it is worth this princely sum, and they are the only ones who know all the facts; how much awful stuff are they still hiding?

[berettafan]

Originally posted by Neilk
I am sure some pastors of mega-churches would disagree with you.

did you see that show on Discovery or History (can't recall which exactly) about the mega churches?

Very disturbing stuff.





btw, any organization that's been around as long as the Catholic church without paying taxes is bound to have a LOT of cash. it doesn't hurt that members of the church are told that a priest needs to talk to God for them. if i thought a human being had anything to do with my entrance into heaven you can bet i'd be pretty nice to them as well!

[berettafan]

Legions theory is interesting and sorta complements what i believe as well which is if you gather that many sheep in one place you are going to have wolves in the area.

[Superman]

Yes, I think Legion's observations are on point. Yes, there are predatory Catholic priests. There are predatory gas station clerks too.

I've been Catholic all my life. Went to a Catholic grade school for six years. Served as Altar Boy clear through HS. Later, I attended Gonzaga University. I knew one priest who I didn't care for, but I don't suspect he was a pedophile. His problem was more with power than sex. Little Caesar/Napoleon complex. All the other priests I have known have been anywhere from very professional and effective......to downright inspirational.

And just for your collective edification, there are two kinds of Holy Orders. There are monks who have taken a vow of obedience to an Abbey, and there are priests who have vowed to obey a Bishop. Bishops oversee a Diocese. A territory. Diocesen priests do not take vows of poverty. They may own property. Many of them enter the priesthood with means. Their families have money.

And then there are monks who have joined an Order. Order of St. Benedict (Benedictine Monk), for example. These men do take vows of poverty. They personally own NOTHING.

One more thing. Jesuits are priests whose job is to teach. Their education is the equivalent of a PhD PLUS seminary. In other words, these dudes are in their late twenties by the time their formal education is complete. Don't try to outsmart a Jesuit. And......it's not easy to tell who they are. The don't always wear the collar.