HELP expose the lie before they ruin our healthcare

[targa911S]

Interesting and timely subject. The guy that bought my car was from a former Soviet counrty that now has government health care. We talked about it a lot when he was here and as he said "There is no free lunch" The sysytem is very backed up because the govt. pays the Docs and they pretty much don't care how many people they see daily. It also is pretty corrupt as you can get what you want and "better" care with bribery. Also he pays so much in taxes to pay for the care that at the end of the day he only nets 38% of his gross income.

[Tobra]

Originally posted by Dottore
Well we have to agree to disagree on this. I like to see my tax dollar spent on health care and education in particular, and I believe that universally available quality health care and education should be the minimum that a civilized democracy aspires to.

But there are lots of threads on this subject already...

Money, yours and mine, is spent in copious amounts on healthcare. Medicare, Medicaid(Medical in California, go figure) are federally funded. We have such a good system, other countries encourage their citizens to arrive here pregnant when they illegally enter the country, to take advantage of the free healthcare, food, education we have here already.

Originally posted by Dottore
who cares where the upper crust goes? the point is to give everyone access.

the question of illegals is of course a seperate issue.

No, you are mistaken, immigration, both legal and illegal, and universal healthcare are intimately connected.

EVERYONE has access now, that is part of the problem. You cannot be refused care at the ER. Show no ID and give a fabricated name, voila, free healthcare. Even if you do give the right name, compromises are available on any bill a hospital gives you.

Originally posted by Hawktel
Well I'm not going to cavalierly dismiss the claims of the OP, but I doubt he is on the right track.

We pay more than any other country on healthcare. We don't live longer. Our hospitals rank 37th I think I read out of 197 countries.

But, I think I'd rather be a rich sick person in almost any country than a poor sick person period. But if you have to be a poor sick person, I don't think your going to find many places better than the USA.

Exactly, healthcare is rationed much more in the systems Dottore would have us emulate. No, they do not have ready access. Lifelong friend of mine was in Calgary(Alberta, Canada, where they have the best healthcare system in the world



He has chest pain, trots on down to the ER, and it is a 4 hour wait to even be evaluated. He goes to the airport, flies to Minneapolis and was done with his heart catheterization before he would have even been seen in Calgary.

Dottore, you need to get out more.

[Dottore]

Originally posted by Tobra

No, you are mistaken, immigration, both legal and illegal, and universal healthcare are intimately connected.
Dottore, you need to get out more.

Sorry but the issues are seperate. I think good, timely health care should be available to every LEGAL resident at an affordable cost. That is a quality of life issue.

The problem of illegal aliens really shouldn't be confused with the health care issue. You need to deal with the immigration issue seperately - or not.

Actually I do get out a lot. I spent only four months in-country last year. But I know two families well in the U.S, who have been financially ruined by medical bills. That should not happen in my view. It's just wrong.

[m21sniper]

Originally posted by Dottore
I suggest you get out more. I would rather fall ill in any of the countries you mention than in the US. I would almost certainly get better treatment AND I wouldn't have to mortgage my home in the process.

But you'd also drive a 'smart car' over an SUV, sacrificing your own personal safety to save a few bucks. So i'm not sure you're the best role model to mimic.

TOBRA: EVERYONE has access now, that is part of the problem. You cannot be refused care at the ER. Show no ID and give a fabricated name, voila, free healthcare. Even if you do give the right name, compromises are available on any bill a hospital gives you.

As long as you're under the poverty level the state pays for it anyway, if you're on welfare or not. And there are free clinics in every city one can go to, and they have real doctors and all.

Originally posted by Dottore I think good, timely health care should be available to every LEGAL resident at an affordable cost.

It is.

Actually I do get out a lot. I spent only four months in-country last year. But I know two families well in the U.S, who have been financially ruined by medical bills. That should not happen in my view. It's just wrong.

Since you've obviously never been told, life is not fair. I am reminded of such every time i see a ferarri. Or a guy with a 19yo trophy blonde. Or i visit a relatives really snazzy house in the burbs. Or i watch an olympian perform. Or a professional fighter, or, or, or....

LOL@ the perpetual niavete' of Liberals.

[Racerbvd]

Originally posted by Dottore
Sorry but the issues are seperate. I think good, timely health care should be available to every LEGAL resident at an affordable cost. That is a quality of life issue.

The problem of illegal aliens really shouldn't be confused with the health care issue. You need to deal with the immigration issue seperately - or not.

Actually I do get out a lot. I spent only four months in-country last year. But I know two families well in the U.S, who have been financially ruined by medical bills. That should not happen in my view. It's just wrong.

Aren't you the one trying to get out of paying the taxes on a car you posted about in another thread, talk about being a hypocrite

[futuresoptions]

Not for it one way or the other. I think that free makets drive technology to where we all benefit. I think that our Government can't run itself effectively nevermind a health care system. We probably have plenty of Canadian Pelicans that could help us change our minds about it one way or another but if it does ever come to pass you will still have our very own politicians running everything. Sounds too risky for me to put my healthcare in their hands no matter what party they are a member of.

[RoninLB]

a person is either a socialist or a free marketeer.

it's the nature of a central command and control bureauracy to become overloaded.. so goes socialism in general.

it's the nature of a free market to become competitively priced and deliver competitive goods.

Whoever thinks any gov't can deliver top notch health care is nuts.

Competitive health insurance on a national scale in the US is being blocked by a socialist mindset and health bureauracy. Until that is resolved there will never be competitive health plans for a good price.

[snowman]

all very true, until we have a competitive health care plan we will not have any plan with a good price or performance.

As to bankrupting an individual, why did they not pay for health insurance? There is almost NO excuse not to have it. I have been unemployed for extended periods, yet I still found ways to pay for my Cobra or to find my own health insurance. And I have plenty of reasons to be rejected by insurance companies. I have never been uninsured since I started working, in fact even when I was a student in college. Why? I always found the money, and it was in short supply, to pay for the insurance. If I had become so unfortunate as to lost all insurance, I still would have had health insurance, its just I would have to give up my assets first to help pay the price. ITs a fair trade, especially compared to going with any socialist health system that robs everyone of most of thier assets, all the time. And even then the benefit is not as good. EVery time Ihave had the misfortune to visit the er I have seen a long line of uninsured mexicans, all obtaining the finest medical care in the world, for absolutely NO cost. WTF is wrong with this? Its that they do not have to pay one dime for their care, not one dime.

But back on subject.

Please DO NOT let them foul up our present health care system with universal, Hillary, care. If you do, EVERYONE loses, NO ONE gains, except politicians who have more people as their subjects. People who have to kiss assss to get what they need. A politicains dream land.

So if you MUST have universal health care, I will pay your way to Canada or France or any other wonderland you might like. It will be ONE WAY, do not return. Save america for the americans.

HELP EXPOSE THE BIG LIE!!! Americans actually live a better and longer life than anyone. Their statistics are LIES. Help prove it.

Recent illegal immigrants are NOT americans and DO NOT count. Make the euro nations use the same statistics we use, make them count the recent immigrints.

Their populations DO NOT live longer, they DO NOT have better outcomes for less money, Thats part if the big LIE and must be exposed before we lose everything.

An APPLES TO APPLES comparason will show that we have the better system, the better result, by far. Just like the global warming farce, the europeans talk a good line, but they lie like crazy. Even though the US did not sign up to the K treaty, we actually did better than ALL the countrys that did. They simply LIED and continue to LIE. Talk a big line and then do as you wish, the euro way.

[nostatic]

Actually there are some excellent hospitals and facilities in asia like Bumrungrad Hospital in Bangkok.

Not sure how you prove the statistics are lies. You want to substitute your anecdotal experience for actual research?

[snowman]

Thats what I am asking for, DATA actual data that can be trusted.

Every single euro that I have ever met, no matter how good a person, has indicated how they beat the system. They ALL do this in ways that would put a typical american in jail. This mode of operation is SOP for EVERY country in the world, except the us.

To add to this misfortune, every single euro I know is from the highest levels of govt or society, so I must assume that it is standard practice for the commoners.

[tabs]

Michael Moorer is my hero.

[gamin]

Wayne is absolutely correct. We need tort reform before health care
reform. Health care is only one of the areas of our society that
lawyers have fouled up and made more expensive in their quest
for personal gain at the expense of the rest of us.
Regarding goverment health care, one only has to look at the military
and the VA for shining examples of how we would be treated. And
these programs are small compared to the vast bureaucracy that
would face us all. You get what you pay for.

[Zef]

So if you're rich...you'll get care...And if you're not...!!!???

[DanielDudley]

Wayne, you are making a lot of sense there.

[tonypeoni]

"I'm more than happy to pay my healthcare premiums (and those of my employees too)"

Wayne thats nice, but unfortunately most employers aren't about to go to that expense. I have a relatively high paying job by Midwest standards and I have no health care. This is the major problem with a economy based on small business. In truth a small business needs to pay the typical employee 20% more to makeup for the lack of benefits that larger company's can easily offer. Larger company's are getting away from benefit packages in order to lower overhead and maximize profit for its investors. Which goes back to my initial theory that the stock market is basically evil.

[tonypeoni]

However Ive just made myself a hypocrite. Yes I hate the health care system but in no way am I willing to pay 70% taxes. These damn doctors are the root of the problem. I think doctors and lawyers are pretty much as low as it gets.

My dermatologist tried to get me to wait 2 and half weeks. I went back to my family doctor and he got me a appointment the next day. Apparently the dermatologist only works from 8-4 Mon,Tue,Thur and only until 1:30 on Wed. Hes off from Friday on. So yeah I think doctors have it tough.

[Dottore]

Originally posted by Racerbvd
Aren't you the one trying to get out of paying the taxes on a car you posted about in another thread, talk about being a hypocrite

Originally posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts
Yes, I noted that in the other thread as well.

-Wayne

I'm always amazed at the knee-jerk belligerance and name-calling that goes on in this forum.

First: I'm not trying to "get out" of paying taxes. I posed a simple question and sought input. If you read the other thread you will appreciate this. And the variety of the responses on that other thread at the very least demonstrates that the issue is not entirely clear.

Second: Even if I were trying to avoid taxes (which I'm not) there is nothing hypocritical about seeking to avoid a tax WHICH I BELIEVED I HAD ALREADY PAYED IN THE ALL INCLUSIVE PRICE I NEGOTIATED with the dealer - and being in favour of a fairer system of healthcare that better looks after CITIZENS who have no insurance. These two concepts have ZERO to do with one another.

Less belligerance and a some more nuanced thinking would go a long way here.

[futuresoptions]

Have any of you actually stopped and asked why there are so many topics such as this that keep us divided.... Why, who is doing it and for what reasons. Have you ever wondered why the world has existed for so long and no one has been able to pull it together. Which ever ends up being the norm it will be seriously flawed..... For the simple fact that they are opposite forms of healthcare. One that you pay upfront, and one that you pay out of taxes (if paying taxes). Both forms have positive and negative aspects. Neither is perfect and never will be because human nature will not allow humans to compromise in such a manner that will allow a common sense solution.. And this goes for everyother hot button topic that exists or ever has existed....

[snowman]

Where is it written that everyone is entitled to healthcare? Furthermore where it it written that everyone is entietled to equal healthcare? Certainly that is not true. It makes far more sense that society take good care of say Bill Gates than the Snowman. Bill Gates generates far more jobs and money and benefits for society than the Snowman will ever do. Consequently it makes much more sense that Bill Gates gets the best care. Who decides that Bill Gates is worth more than the Snowman? The bottom line decides. Bill Gates generates more benefits to society, consequently he has more money and can pay for the best. His time is worth much more than anyone elses, so he should not have to wait for his care, in fact it should be deleivered to him at his home!!! Thats the american way, and the way it should and must be. To put the care of the Snowman, or a no count illegal ahead of Bill Gates is a crime against humanity.

Money and the invisible hand that generates income is the best and fairest way to ration health care. All the systems in the world ration health care, especially the socialist ones. The socialist ones are also subject to the most corruption, its who you know, not what your worth to society is that determines your health care. And even then the care is substandard to that achieved by the american, capitalist system. Our health care is far superior to any other system in the world. The statistics are a LIE. How do I know this? There is a line of people from all over the world, paying money out of their own pocket to come to the US for health care. Therefore the statistics do not pass the basic SMELL test, they STINK to high heaven. Thats the bottom line. Now to expose the lie. Why do the statistics lie to us? We must answer this question if we are to save our far superior health care system.

Ask any scientist. If the facts do not fit the data, the data is wrong and needs further investigation. Thats where we stand. We have the best health care system in the world, bar NONE. The whole world KNOWS that this the truth. Yet the so called data do not seem to back up this FACT. WHY?

I know some of the answers. I know the euro system lies to itself, it is corrupt in known ways. THe people that live in those countries know why their data is wrong, do they also assume the the US cheats in the same way? But the fact is that the US DOES NOT cheat in its data. If we compare apples to apples I think we will find that answers will be far differen't than they are assumed to be.

Almost every single data point from the non us parts of the world is corrupt, a lie. Its simply defined differently than we do or a downright fabrication, thats the way the rest of the world works. any system where a person dies before he even makes the waiting list and consequently is not counted as a failure, is a fraud. The UK uses this sham to perpetuate their false statistics. Just add up the reported deaths that are reported in the UK newspapers, the ones where someone was on the waiting list, for years, and died without even being seen by the system and you will know that they are in big, very big trouble.
Even ILLEGAL immigrints in the US get far better care than the so called insured people in the UK.

MLK hospital in LA is being closed down for letting people die in their er for the lack of simple care, yet this care is better than what the people in the UK get.

Don't get me wrong, I am not picking on the UK, the UK probably has better care than most of the other socialized countries have.

[Racerbvd]

Originally posted by Dottore
Originally posted by Racerbvd
Aren't you the one trying to get out of paying the taxes on a car you posted about in another thread, talk about being a hypocrite



I'm always amazed at the knee-jerk belligerance and name-calling that goes on in this forum.

First: I'm not trying to "get out" of paying taxes. I posed a simple question and sought input. If you read the other thread you will appreciate this. And the variety of the responses on that other thread at the very least demonstrates that the issue is not entirely clear.

Second: Even if I were trying to avoid taxes (which I'm not) there is nothing hypocritical about seeking to avoid a tax WHICH I BELIEVED I HAD ALREADY PAYED IN THE ALL INCLUSIVE PRICE I NEGOTIATED with the dealer - and being in favour of a fairer system of healthcare that better looks after CITIZENS who have no insurance. These two concepts have ZERO to do with one another.

Less belligerance and a some more nuanced thinking would go a long way here.

You are the one talking about using tax $$$ to fund stupid people, then you post something trying to get out of paying taxes you owe on a technicality.
If you are so stupid not to now your local tax laws and a car salesman burns you, your tough luck. And if you aren't even a US citizen, a big FU you piece of ***** hypocrite!! Again, igorance of the the doesn't count if you are too stupid to understand (and as a liberal, you are) the law, choke on your dildo!!! You tried to cheat your tAXES, you are nothing but a lying POFS liberal hypoctrite so STFU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!