HELP expose the lie before they ruin our healthcare

[snowman]

HELP expose the lie before they ruin our healthcare
There has been much talk recently about single payer health care systems and how much better all of the rest of the worlds health care is than ours in the US.

That is a great big LIE and the lie must be exposed before it’s too late and they ruin what’s left of the best health care system in the world.

Remember the great Soviet system? Long told to be far superior to ours. When exposed to the light of day we found it was one big lie. One group of élites had pretty good, but still far inferior to western standards, health care. The other group had dismal, almost nonexistent care of the lowest possible quality. That is FACT, now shown in full daylight to be what it was. Cuba still presents this façade, yet everyone knows the truth. Even Fidel had to import Spanish Drs to cure his condition.

The UK, France, Germany, the Dutch.... all claim to be the best, somehow showing better outcomes than our system. IT IS A BIG LIE. How else can you explain the almost daily newspaper articles of people dying from lack of care, year long waits for heart conditions are common. Everyday a new promise, everyday a new tragedy, no improvement in sight. Many of the rich from these countries, and some even mortgage their property, come to the US for care they cannot get in their own country. They would have died if they had waited for their system to work.

Having worked with many people from these countries, I KNOW that their so called statistics are one big LIE. Our country is probably the ONLY country in the entire world that presents near truthful statistics. ALL the others LIE. They lie by structuring the data in ways that the results do not have to be counted, they lie in many ways by bending and reshaping and redefining data. OR just by faking data and or results. Again OUR country is probably the ONLY country that generally does NOT do any of this. We do not lie to ourselves, like all the European countries do. Their system is much like the Soviet system, its outcome a complete fabrication.

Please help save our health care system. Please prevent the destruction of the best health care system in the world. Even if you live in some other country, help save ours, otherwise you may not have any place to go to when you really need help.

EXPOSE the great health care lie. Anyone who can document some small kink in you systems, please do so. With enough information we can expose the great lie and as a result save the US health care system, and eventually maybe even your own.

[Dottore]

Originally posted by snowman
The UK, France, Germany, the Dutch.... all claim to be the best, somehow showing better outcomes than our system. IT IS A BIG LIE.

I suggest you get out more. I would rather fall ill in any of the countries you mention than in the US. I would almost certainly get better treatment AND I wouldn't have to mortgage my home in the process.

[snowman]

all you have to do is live in the US. We keep running into people from all over the world, people spending their own money, just to survive their lack of health care in their own country. Our local hospitals are flooded with people from your wonderlands.

[Dottore]

Originally posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts
I'm also confused about when healthcare became a right, instead of something that you had to earn and pay for.
-Wayne

Well we have to agree to disagree on this. I like to see my tax dollar spent on health care and education in particular, and I believe that universally available quality health care and education should be the minimum that a civilized democracy aspires to.

But there are lots of threads on this subject already...

[Chuck Moreland]

Worse still is the the CA plan proposed by Arnold, who I normally like/support. His plan is brain-dead.

Health coverage for every person in CA; legal, illegal, employed, unemployed. Last I checked we don't control the borders in CA. Pass this plan and CA will draw every illegal, every homeless, every ill, every unemployed person in the country - with the state's taxpayers footing the bill.

*******

I'm with wayne on this. Next we expect auto, home, and life insurance as an entitlement?

[snowman]

I have been unfortunate enough to have to actually use our health care system. I have found that those totally satisfied users, never actually use the system. What I have found is that you get what you pay for. I thing this is also "as it should be".

Back in the bad old days, when I had Kaiser, and there are much worse HMOS than Kaiser I found that they couldn't see someone with common problems like a sever cold untill well after the cold healed itself. So much for perscription cough meds and the like. Have a torn rotator cuff, very painful and a problem the MUST be corrected, you wait for 6 months in sever pain, and unable to function properly, before they approve surgery. Usually done by a surgeon who is pissed because he just got shafted by the hmo on the last job.

Other hmos, like Bristol Park in OC, CA are even worse. Have type 11 diabetes? then you NEED a Glucose test kit, period. My Dr was put on the carpet for perscribing one for me. He quit as a result of that experience. A friend of mine, his wife has skin cancer. Several treatments with correct machine, check cancer. Seems to be in remission. 3 weeks later, it was not in remission. Reapplication for new treatments, lost, lost, lost in the system, typical, it may be 6 monthe or until she dies before additonal treatments are approved again. Thats Bristol Park, and thats probably a step above a single payer system.

I used to play Judo for over 35 years 2 to 4 times a week for 2 to 4 hours per night. A friend, an olympic status kind of player, tore up his knee. He was with Kaiser. Kaiser told him to adjust his lifestyle to his new knee. He had to pay for his own surgery and then sue Kaiser to get reimbursed, which he did.

The really WORST part of managed care or HMOs is that they WON"T EVEN TELL YOU that a cure or fix is availble. Their Drs are FORBIDDEN to tell you, that is a FACT.

With a good health care plan, which I paid for out of my own pocket, I had another torn rotator cuff. I went to my Dr the next day, was in surgery 2 days later, problem solved. I needed to better control my Blood sugar, no sweat, the next day I had a new $10K state of the art insulin pump and accessorys. I met a 12 year old kid at the training seminar. He was with Kaiser. He was undergoing a 12 month ordeal to obtain an insuling pump. and he was a type 1 diabetic with an ablosute need for the device. Even then he will probably only get the obsolete 4 year old design.

By the way, I am elegible for medicare. I had to waive my medicare benefit in order to receive the latest pump in a reasonable time. again single payer would be worse.

[RoninLB]

universal health care is a socialist scam. Does anyone really believe the upper crust of society will go down to the local health clinic?

[Dottore]

Originally posted by RoninLB
universal health care is a socialist scam. Does anyone really believe the upper crust of society will go down to the local health clinic?

who cares where the upper crust goes? the point is to give everyone access.

the question of illegals is of course a seperate issue.

[snowman]

Almost everyone BUT the illegal’s now has access to good health care. You are going to ruin it for ALL of us to get a few illegal’s taken care of on the books, yet they are now taken care of off the books, and probably receive better care as a result.

Please move to France and leave us to our "inferior" american health care system

I bet the upper class in europe gets far superior health care than the common foke.

[Dottore]

Originally posted by snowman

Please move to France and leave us to our "inferior" american health care system

Because I don't like something about my country I should leave? Have you ever heard of open debate, democracy, opposition...etc?

[Dottore]

Originally posted by snowman

I bet the upper class in europe gets far superior health care than the common foke.

Yup. They also eat better, drink better, drive better, f__k better and take longer vacations. That's the privilege of money.

BUT every French man or women regardless of income has ready access to top quality health care. And none of them will ever have to mortgage their house to get it. THAT is the point you consistently ignore.

[snowman]

NO, not when you screw up MY rights as an american.

And NO they DO NOT have READY access to health care, thats the point! Thats part of the great LIE.

[Hawktel]

Well I'm not going to cavalierly dismiss the claims of the OP, but I doubt he is on the right track.

We pay more than any other country on healthcare. We don't live longer. Our hospitals rank 37th I think I read out of 197 countries.

But, I think I'd rather be a rich sick person in almost any country than a poor sick person period. But if you have to be a poor sick person, I don't think your going to find many places better than the USA.

[Dottore]

Originally posted by snowman
NO, not when you screw up MY rights as an american.

Oh right. You're Snowman. How could I forget? No point continuing this discussion.

Time for a couple of fingers of Macallan. Good night.

[snowman]

I forgot a couple of points about Kaiser. All Kaiser is not equal. I worked for General Dynamics when I had Kaiser. I had a 50 cent co pay for meds, and 2 dollar for office visits. Others had 10 times that ammount and Kaiser did not cover the same benefits for them as I had.

I do not appreciate being ridiculed for something as important as health care, you sob. Yes our AMERICAN system is BETTER than any other, period. Any statistics stating otherwise are a lie, a deception, that simple.

With the help of people all around the world I hope we can show that this is indeed the fact, otherwise we will lose the best health care system in the world to a bunch of commies.

And with that, 3 fingers of JAck DAINIELS and a good night.

PS

How did so many commies end up on the Porsche BBS????

[K. Roman]

Snowman, you sound like such an idiot that it's actually cute. No homo. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

[Spin City]

Originally posted by Dottore
Well we have to agree to disagree on this. I like to see my tax dollar spent on health care and education in particular, and I believe that universally available quality health care and education should be the minimum that a civilized democracy aspires to.

While were holding our hands out to our almighty givers in D.C., why stop with healthcare? Aren't food, clothes, and a place to live basic human rights? Why don't we let the feds manage and distribute all the the above? Money is essential in our society. Let's let the goverment decide how much each of us deserves. Throw air and water in there too. Those are basic human necessities.

The sad part is that you probably agree......

Furthermore, you ended a sentence with a preposition.

[Dantilla]

Originally posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts
I think that instead of universal healthcare, we should concentrate on tort reform. Legal troubles often lead to a lot of unnecessary tests and "covering of your back" by doctors. This is a big element of why healthcare costs have increased, but not too many people talk about it...

-Wayne

+1.

Health care by the same people that brought you the DMV? No thanks.

[on2wheels52]

Most of my customers are low income. I hear them complain about their ailments but not their medical care. Who paid for Cecil's bypass, Shelly's hysterectomy, Frank's ventalator etc. I know they didn't.
Jim

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by Dottore
I suggest you get out more. I would rather fall ill in any of the countries you mention than in the US. I would almost certainly get better treatment AND I wouldn't have to mortgage my home in the process.

I just became ill in the UK and France two weeks ago. Needed treatment and could not get it until I waved $100 bills around.

Suggest YOU get out a bit more. If you are dying they will help you immediately, but if its not life threatening you can wait a very long time in many cases.

Both the US and Europe have good and bad parts in their health care, nothing is perfect.