Geert Wilders. Whats your opinion?

[livi]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitna_%28film%29

[Rikao4]

I'm looking forward to the peaceful muslie's dancing in the streets once again, and hopefully some will set their own a$$ on fire for a change. Do these rats ever work..oh forgot its Eurabia they don't have too. I know there is supposedly a difference between them and 'extremist'
Bull*****.. to me no I no longer see any difference at all.
merde,****,scheisse..smells the same no matter what .

Rika

[varmint]

it's too easy to dismiss him as a bigot/crackpot. every time muslims riot, they prove him right.

[svandamme]

If anybody else had released this same vid, without the big noise in advance from a right wing cat like Geert Wilders, it wouldn't even have been a blip on the radar, and such vid's have been released, and are out there

Although the generalizations he's making in Fitna are undeniable, Yes these passages exist in the Koran, Yes some nutcases take em literally (similar passages are in the Old testament if one cares to look em up) it really serves no purpose other then agitating folks... And essentially, he failed miserably, because the Muslim community in Holland just shrugged, they had expected something really nasty, and all he delivered was a collage of existing news footage with some captions... Big effing deal

Sure, Iran has condemned the movie, or something like that, but so what, Iran condemns everything non Islamic, or anti Islamic, it's what you can expect from an Islamic nation... So that's not news either... It's about as normal for Iran to not like it , as it would be normal for the White House to be pissed off about something like, oh, let's see, Iran's public hangins of nancy boys... It's probably about at the same level of pissed offness... eg, "not happy about it, and voicing this unhappyness, but really not about to go out of one's way to do anything about it...just can't be bothered that much with it..."

So Geert Wilders did what? nothing much really, It won't win any Oscars, nor will it win a Nobel Prize... He failed to bait the Dutch Muslims into rioting or violence, so he can't say "see, i told you, these guys need to be locked up en masse"

At best he made the Dutch PM look like a dolt, because he was talking boogey man is coming and it's Wilders fault...raise the terror alert wooo this is bad !!
And in the end, nothing really happened,
but personally, i don't want to credit Wilders with Balkenende looking like a dolt, because Balkenende really takes care of that by himself...Can't credit one idiot, for making the other idiot look like an idiot... or something like that...

[livi]

Stijn,

Interesting and valid point about the same evilness found in the Old Testament. Some 600-800 years ago a similar movie on Christianity would be controversial too. The same age difference that exists between the two religions prophets. Give the muslies another 600 years and they will have mellowed out to the same level Christianity works today (in ROW at least).

[svandamme]

between 400 and 800 years ago you simply would have been snuffed for even thinking about making such a movie about Old Testament...

[pwd72s]

Originally Posted by livi

Stijn,

Interesting and valid point about the same evilness found in the Old Testament. Some 600-800 years ago a similar movie on Christianity would be controversial too. The same age difference that exists between the two religions prophets. Give the muslies another 600 years and they will have mellowed out to the same level Christianity works today (in ROW at least).

I'll hang around, see if your prediction becomes true.

[svandamme]

Originally Posted by pwd72s

I'll hang around, see if your prediction becomes true.

man, you gonna look like a shriveled up raisin by then

[artplumber]

Originally Posted by livi

Stijn,

Interesting and valid point about the same evilness found in the Old Testament. Some 600-800 years ago a similar movie on Christianity would be controversial too. The same age difference that exists between the two religions prophets. Give the muslies another 600 years and they will have mellowed out to the same level Christianity works today (in ROW at least).

Livi,
For someone who generally seems to have their head on straight, I would reconsider this response. Islam is almost as old as Judaism. Christianity is much younger than both. In the days thousands of years ago when the Jewish people fought those around them including Islamists one could say that the Jewish people might be guilty of attacking individuals based solely on religion. Yet, the Jewish people no longer do that and the number of terrorist actions by Jewish people are vanishingly small (at least that I remember). Despite similar age of religions, in the recent time period, the number of terrorist activities by those of muslim faith, for either ethnic or religious reasons is huge. Likewise, Christianity has long lost the crusades with few terrorist activities. Certainly, there is no aim to "convert or die" as is promulgated by these current crop of islamists.

[livi]

Peter,

Sorry for my (usually) confusing posts. I was referring to the age difference between Jesus and Mohammad.

My bad.

[svandamme]

Originally Posted by artplumber

Livi,
For someone who generally seems to have their head on straight, I would reconsider this response. Islam is almost as old as Judaism. Christianity is much younger than both.

i think you need read up on the age of Islam
it's actually younger then Christianity is....

Mohamed died in the year 632... and he was the one that came up with "Islam"
before him, the Arabs were pretty much barking at the moon and the sun and everything in between, it was many things, but it sure as hell wasn't Islam or Allah
Mohammed even includes Jezus Christ as a true prophet, Islam is an Abrahamic religion, just like Judaism and Christianity is...
It's a spin-off from both Judaism and Christianity... so it can't be older then Christianity...nor could it be almost as old as Judaism

[artplumber]

Originally Posted by svandamme

i think you need read up on the age of Islam
it's actually younger then Christianity is....

Mohamed died in the year 632... and he was the one that came up with "Islam"
before him, the Arabs were pretty much barking at the moon and the sun and everything in between, it was many things, but it sure as hell wasn't Islam or Allah
Mohammed even includes Jezus Christ as a true prophet, Islam is an Abrahamic religion, just like Judaism and Christianity is...
It's a spin-off from both Judaism and Christianity... so it can't be older then Christianity...nor could it be almost as old as Judaism

True. I suppose I'm thinking of the arab world rather than "islam" itself. They have always warred with the Jewish state/religion, and have since adopted a religion which continues that tradition, to wit - Islam.

[svandamme]

Well, everybody was fighting everybody in that region, and it's only natural that it centered around nowadays Israel, since that was the only part that was fertile.. the rest was mostly desert... Except maybe the Nile Delta, where they fought pretty often as well
Nothing to do with culture or religion, that's just a power struggle for land,
No different from the Greeks fighting amongst eachother and neighbours, then the Romans ...

They all fought, those who didn't, did't make it

[jmshepard]

Originally Posted by svandamme

i think you need read up on the age of Islam
it's actually younger then Christianity is....

Mohamed died in the year 632... and he was the one that came up with "Islam"
before him, the Arabs were pretty much barking at the moon and the sun and everything in between, it was many things, but it sure as hell wasn't Islam or Allah
Mohammed even includes Jezus Christ as a true prophet, Islam is an Abrahamic religion, just like Judaism and Christianity is...
It's a spin-off from both Judaism and Christianity... so it can't be older then Christianity...nor could it be almost as old as Judaism

Actually, Allah was a god in early Arabia. His figure, along with that of his daughters can be found in bas relief carvings that predate Mohammad by hundreds of years. His image was often found with the symbol crescent moon and a star, he was the god associated with the moon. Allah was one of the pantheon of gods worshiped in the Ka'ba in Mecca. This was before Mohammad converted the peninsula's inhabitants to a monotheistic religion. Also, Mohammed's father was named Abdallah which means servant of Allah.

[svandamme]

Actually, Allah just means "god"
Arabian Christians even today call the Christian God , Allah

Any pre Mohammedian Allah, just meant that , God


the Allah that Mohammed was on about was the same one as the Jews and Christians pray too,

and as Mohammed's Allah, cannot be depicted in any form of picture , sculpture or whatever, This is quite an important thing in Islam,those relief carvings you talk about can't be of the Islamic Allah....
Any form of symbolic recycling of a crescent moon&star is just that, recycling of imagery, not ideology or deity

It's the reason why Muslims say, there is only one God and Mohammed is his prophet,
they wanna make sure you understand that they are talking about That specific interpretation of Allah, Mohammed's Allah and not any of the others

Res ipsa loquitur

[artplumber]

Technically though, what Stijn states is true. Islam in it's current form doesn't predate Judaism. You lend more specific info to the past conflict between those in the arab world and their neighbors (Jews and others).

What my point was, which is still not refuted (Stijn), both Judaism and Christianity have "matured" whereas Islam continues to be a "crutch" of those who want to commit terrorist acts.

[svandamme]

i'm not refuting that , because i agree to it...
was merely pointing out that Islam is the youngest of the 3 major Abrahamic religions
That it's Allah is not a god that was recycled from the previous Allah's they knew in that region, but he was an Allah came out of Mohammed's desert tripping, and that he said was the same god who can be traced back to Abraham & co

[jmshepard]

Sorry Stijn, but I will have to take exception to that;

An Abridged Koran, Volume 4, Chapter 1 page 1, Published by CSPI in 2006 states:

"Mohammad's father was called Abdullah, meaning slave of Allah. Allah was a high god of the many gods worshiped in the town of Mecca".

page 2 reads,
"The god, Allah, seems to have been a male god of the moon and was probably the god of Quraysh. Each tribe had its gods. There was not much organization of gods, unlike the Greeks and Romans. Mohammed's father was named after Allah, but his brothers were named after other Arabic gods".

I am certainly not an authority on Islam, but I have studied the 3 texts that make up the theology. The Koran, the revelations of Allah to Mohamed, the Sira the life of Mohamed and the Hadith, the political system. All 3 of these works must be read as a cross reference to understand the Koran.


BTW the Quraysh was Mohammad's tribe.

[jmshepard]

A couple of interesting concepts:
The Koran is not written in chronological order. The larger chapters are in the beginning of the book. The shortest chapter is the last entry.

The verses in the Koran can be superseded by later verses, this is called aborgation. These aborgated verses are called mansukh. Allah explained this tp Mohammed in Suras 16:101 and 2:106,108

When We substitute one revelation for another, - and Allah knows best what He reveals, - they say 'Thou art a forger: But most of them understand not. Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in truth." "None of our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar--Knowest thou not that Allah hath power over all things?....Would you question your Apostle as Moses was questioned of old?"

So...in order to understand what is written you need to know the actual chronological order of the chapters.

[dewolf]

Well the muslies are at it again. Threatening people with death and violence. Yes, peaceful mob aren't they.

internet site Liveleak.com says it has withdrawn anti-Islam film Fitna by far-right Dutch MP Geert Wilders following threats to its staff.

"Following threats to our staff of a very serious nature, and some ill-informed reports from certain corners of the British media that could directly lead to the harm of some of our staff, Liveleak.com has been left with no other choice but to remove Fitna from our servers," the UK-based site said in an online statement.

"This is a sad day for freedom of speech on the net but we have to place the safety and well being of our staff above all else. "