Flew a B737 simulator today....

Jeff Alton · 08-22-2007, 08:05 PM

Just thought I would share a cool experience. Flew in a B737 700 simulator for about 4 hours today. It was a blast! I know commercial pilots may not think too much of the fact that I was thrilled, but it was fun.

We used it to learn more about cockpit management and energy management and fuel burn as it relates to approach design and RNP departure design. Learned a lot for a guy who only has a few hours of time from years gone by. Got a good education about what is going on at the other end of the radio...

I have flown in the flight deck a lot prior to 9/11 but it was nothing compared to being able to create scenarios to work with on the fly.

I had seen these things on TV and doubted the realism, they are very very good.

Hoping to jump into a B767 one in September and then A320, CRJ and A340 in the fall.

As an approach controller, I got a new respect for what goes on in the cockpit because of the clearances we issue....

Cheers

john70t · 08-22-2007, 08:48 PM

There are a lot of things I'm amazed at that pilots are able to/have to handle manually.
Recently took a couple VFR flights in a Cessna and even keeping the plane at proper level, and speed, and pointed in the correct direction was a very small part of the task. No doubt that over unknown terrain at night with human cargo would be a daunting task.
In some cases, "close don't count", but this is certainly is not one of them. You guys are the lifeline.

Joeaksa · 10:22 PM

Jeff,

If you can fly the simulator, you can fly the airplane. The last two airplanes that I was type rated in, I flew the simulator only to get my license, then was turned loose in the airplane. They make the simulator a bit more difficult to fly, that way if you can master the sim, you will have no problems with the actual airplane. After flying the bird I have been for the last 9 years, we do not look forwards to flying the sim as we know it does not fly as easy as the real thing.

Once you get used to flying normally, then add an engine fire, lost of hyd systems, a landing gear that refuses to come down, a thunderstorm with some strong crosswinds and possible icing and you have what we get to do every six months on our checkrides.

Seahawk · 08-23-2007, 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joeaksa

Jeff,

If you can fly the simulator, you can fly the airplane. The last two airplanes that I was type rated in, I flew the simulator only to get my license, then was turned loose in the airplane. They make the simulator a bit more difficult to fly, that way if you can master the sim, you will have no problems with the actual airplane. After flying the bird I have been for the last 9 years, we do not look forwards to flying the sim as we know it does not fly as easy as the real thing.

Once you get used to flying normally, then add an engine fire, lost of hyd systems, a landing gear that refuses to come down, a thunderstorm with some strong crosswinds and possible icing and you have what we get to do every six months on our checkrides.

I HATE sims!!!

The amount of compound, complex emergencies a good sim instructor can throw a pilots way is mind numbing. They can get you sweating like Hulk Hogan on Jeopardy

Glad you enjoyed your ride.

onewhippedpuppy · 08-23-2007, 05:06 AM

Sims are very impressive. I was in the R seat with one of our flight test pilots, our sim/training contractor invited us over to solicit our advice. The cockpit uses real parts from the aircraft, all sounds are from the actual aircraft, etc. According to our test pilot, the sim was probably 95% accurate.

Joe, he said the same thing as you regarding sim vs. actual aircraft. Then I watched him hand-fly a circling approach at minimums in a blizzard with one engine out.

Jeff Alton · 08-23-2007, 01:25 PM

Lucky for me, we were not being tested!

The experience was great to fly particular Stars over and over with different speeds and short cuts in the route to see what happens with deck angle and fuel burn and workload etc.

We did throw a thunderstorm into it, interesting.....

We will be using it again for RNAV departure and RNP departure design at a couple of our airports which will be good too.

We will then put a briefing together, hopefully with line pilots as well, to educate controllers about how different techniques impact the aircraft. Reworking our collective definition of "efficiency" as right now ours is a little different from the one some of our airlines have. Should help us provide a better service to the airlines.

Cheers

rattlsnak · rattlsnak's Garage

yeah, just like last week when the NY airspace was totally clogged because of weather and the clearance you receive is three full lines longer than what you filed with all sorts of vor radial intercepts and such.......

We both looked at each other,. uh, did you get all that?, because all I got was the first fix!

BlueSideUp · 08-23-2007, 08:30 PM

Very cool! I actually enjoy sim and look forward to the new challenges from the instructors. I'm actually going to my 6 month sim check on Monday.

It really is too bad the controllers aren't allowed up front any more. I'm sure a lot of pilots would agree with me that it was a great learning experience to have an actual controller sit up front for a leg. Hopefully they will allow it again, I can't see why they won't add the controllers to the CASS system.

Jeff Alton · 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rattlsnak

yeah, just like last week when the NY airspace was totally clogged because of weather and the clearance you receive is three full lines longer than what you filed with all sorts of vor radial intercepts and such.......

We both looked at each other,. uh, did you get all that?, because all I got was the first fix!

Sounds like a "say again all after......"

I flew regularily for years up front on business travel and found it very valuable. But post 9/11 it is difficult. We are working on changing that up here.

The group I chair is working hard to educate the controller group about workload and clearance implication. We are also working hard at changing techniques and educating about FMS/RNAV/RNP etc.

The basic fact is that as approach controllers we have not adapted as well as we could/should have to the change in aircraft technology over the last 10+ years. Yes, we design FMS approaches and add enroute waypoints but it has become clear to the group I chair that we have more to learn and need to get what we learn out to the control group. We will do that. We still, by and large, use the same techniques and practices we used years ago.

This is major part of my job as we now move ahead with RNAV departure design at CYVR and CYYJ. I also hope to pass on the lessons we learned (both good and bad) to the folks working on the CYYZ approach restructure. I know my group benefited immensley from the experience of the folks in both KSLC and KPHX. Both of those Approach Facilities shared their wisdom and experience in taking on similar projects. There is a lot of great people working in those units.

cheers

450knotOffice · 450knotOffice's Garage

Jeff, thanks for relating that experience from a controller's perspective. I echo the sentiment that we need to have you guys ride along with us again. Back in the day, I really enjoyed having a controller up front with us.

Jeff Alton · 08-28-2007, 09:09 PM

Yes, it was a great exchange of info back then. We have widened our pool of info, so to speak. I have decided to not do all the talking about theoretical problems and fuel burns and power off descents etc around the board room table. Don't get me wrong, it is good to know where the customer stands and what their expectations are, but.......

It is entirely different to go sit in a cockpit (or simulator) and watch it all happen. It was great to have the simulator crew say "why can't we just do this" and we could explain the implications. And we could say "what if we drew the approach from over here?" and they could show us the deck angle and feet per minute and fuel burn...... It was fantastic, and I know the airline who we visited feels the same.

I am hoping to also bring student ATCs out to the simulators in the future (long term goal) and also bring pilots into the classroom to talk with our students.

I have only a few hours flying light singles and I always felt for the last 15 years, that we just did not have enough info. Now that I do airspace design (approach and departure) as well as approach control, I feel the need is even greater.

The sad part is this, when you get slammed dunked in your single aisle jet, the controller thinks he is doing you a favor. These guys try so hard to do the best they can, not realizing that sometimes it is not the best. There is a long long story as to why and how we got to that....

But, now that I am in a position where I have some control over the design of our airspace it is nice to be able to mix the needs of the customer in with the safety requirements of the system. We are trying to get more flexible so that when the complexity is low, the cutomer's needs move up the totem pole. Safety trumps everything, but I am trying to move towards an idea where if we can do something, we should.

Scott, if you ever fly up to CYVR, CYYJ or CYXX drop me note, I would love the feedback on how we treated you!

Cheers

Jeff Alton · 08-28-2007, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueSideUp

Very cool! I actually enjoy sim and look forward to the new challenges from the instructors. I'm actually going to my 6 month sim check on Monday.

It really is too bad the controllers aren't allowed up front any more. I'm sure a lot of pilots would agree with me that it was a great learning experience to have an actual controller sit up front for a leg. Hopefully they will allow it again, I can't see why they won't add the controllers to the CASS system.

I agree 100%

We also love it when a crew or pilot comes in for a tour. I usually do the tour and will sit the pilot down in eithere departure control or approach control and give them a headset to listen in with.

I remember flying up front with a crew out of CYYZ back to CYVR one day a few years back. After what seemed like some very basic questions from the Captain of 30yrs experience I asked him if he had visited an ATC unit before. He said "nope"! He came in later that month and remarked that he should have done every year starting 30 years ago.

We suffer the same problem. I was working a Martin Mars water bomber the other day and the controller said "what does a Maritn Mars look like?" I said "well it is a high wing, 4 engine..." They say "high wing???, what do you mean?" You get the picture.......

Cheers