Cuba and China.

[WI wide body]

It is quite interesting how our government has managed to get most Americans to think about China and Cuba.

Cuba is portrayed as a despot led nation with the ever evil COMMUNIST label invoked when nothing else is available. Americans are asked to boycott virtually everything from the tiny island nation.

But China seems to get different treatment. Our government has no problem over-looking the "Communist" in Communist China while the clever "international businessmen" exploit the lack of regulation and the abysmal working conditions and pay in China. The only defense seems to be "Hey you are getting cheap stuff at WalMart so what are you bichin' about."

But the fact of the matter is that China has probably done more harm to the USA over the past 5 years than any nation on the planet. And what does our "leadership" do...they send Paulson and clods of his ilk to China to be humiliated while begging the Chinese to be nice in the future.

Don't worry about terrorists boys and girls...that's mostly bull*****...if anything brings down our nation it will the stuffed shirts who populate Washington and the businessmen who value profit above nation.

[Jim727]

WWB - you're being way too consistent. That kind of thinking can only get you into trouble.

Same problem with the invasion from the south. We'll send our troops thousands of miles on a poorly thought out war for "security", but protect our southern border?? Noooooooooo. Lettuce might cost ten cents more.

You have to wonder what happened to us.

_

[Rick Lee]

Let's see here. Since Fidel has been in power, China has had numerous leaders, Cuba only one. China has adapted to the modern world and become more capitalist than we now are. Cuba has not. While I haven't been to Cuba, I have been to China and plenty of real communist countries back in the old Soviet Bloc days. Night and day difference. China may not have elections and they may have a state controlled media. But walk around any city there and you have no idea whatsoever you're in a communist country. Walking around Dresden or Magdeburg in the 80's and you could see the fear in people's eyes and wondered when that place was start cleaning up the rubble from WWII. Cuba, AFAIK, is still a totalitarian police state. Only sign of that I ever saw in China (and I've been all over that country and not in a tour group) was once in a while in an Internet cafe I'd have to give my passport # to get on to check my email and surf. That fact that Fidel is still in power (or was until a few days ago) and regularly has dissidents sent to labor camps or even executed speaks far more about that system than any US gov't. propaganda ever could.

[Jim727]

Rick -

We tend to agree on lots of things, so I'll pose a hypothetical situation to you. What do you think would have been the evolution of Cuba had we conducted trade with them the same way we have done with China? If the citizens of Cuba had more contact with our way of life and approach to prosperity would that have resulted in a greater impetus toward a free society than isolating them as we have done?

I think WWB has an excellent point in that our multinational corps. have more interest in their profitability than in our national interest.

[WI wide body]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Let's see here. Since Fidel has been in power, China has had numerous leaders, Cuba only one. China has adapted to the modern world and become more capitalist than we now are. Cuba has not. While I haven't been to Cuba, I have been to China and plenty of real communist countries back in the old Soviet Bloc days. Night and day difference. China may not have elections and they may have a state controlled media. But walk around any city there and you have no idea whatsoever you're in a communist country. Walking around Dresden or Magdeburg in the 80's and you could see the fear in people's eyes and wondered when that place was start cleaning up the rubble from WWII. Cuba, AFAIK, is still a totalitarian police state. Only sign of that I ever saw in China (and I've been all over that country and not in a tour group) was once in a while in an Internet cafe I'd have to give my passport # to get on to check my email and surf. That fact that Fidel is still in power (or was until a few days ago) and regularly has dissidents sent to labor camps or even executed speaks far more about that system than any US gov't. propaganda ever could.

Rick,

What did you expect to see in China...yellow skinned devils with horns coming out of their heads just because it's a communist nation?

That was one of my points. Our nation has done some horrific things in the past because of the great "Communist threat" and yet China gets a free pass. Why?

My former company got into a Technical Assistance agreement with China where some of our guys had to go there to assist at the factories. I was never asked but I would have went in a heartbeat. But they had some real horror stories about what actually went on at those plants.

So I'm not pointing fingers here...I did many short assignments in foreign nations for my former company after I retired and I often felt as if I was part of the problem!

[dd74]

I worry less and less about China. If our economy goes south - which it has - so will theirs.

Cuba is a vacation spot for the entire world but us. The embargo we have in place is a false front that is a politically expedient hot potato thrown from one presidential administration to the next. A real president will lower it and invite them into our so-called democracy. But as politics go, the more things change (death of Castro), the more they stay the same (nad-less Presidents lacking guts to lower the embargo).

If you want real worries, look to Russia. That country is quickly turning rogue starting first with Putin.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by Jim727

Rick -

We tend to agree on lots of things, so I'll pose a hypothetical situation to you. What do you think would have been the evolution of Cuba had we conducted trade with them the same way we have done with China? If the citizens of Cuba had more contact with our way of life and approach to prosperity would that have resulted in a greater impetus toward a free society than isolating them as we have done?

That would have been impossible. China was never a Soviet client state, while Cuba was. We were able to do business with China because of that and the fact that they offered us a good counterbalance to Soviet power. And I'd say Cuba has PLENTY of exposure to the U.S. way of life, far more than China had until around Deng's later years. Aside from the millions of family members living in the U.S., Cubans are bombarded with Radio Marti and plenty of other U.S. propaganda or cultural broadcasts. And Cuba was a U.S. territory before 1959, so there are plenty of folks still there who remember those days.

I don't think corporations' financial interests and our government's security interests are necessarily mutually exclusive.

[Racerbvd]

Originally Posted by WI wide body

It is quite interesting how our government has managed to get most Americans to think about China and Cuba.

Cuba is portrayed as a despot led nation with the ever evil COMMUNIST label invoked when nothing else is available. Americans are asked to boycott virtually everything from the tiny island nation.

But China seems to get different treatment. Our government has no problem over-looking the "Communist" in Communist China while the clever "international businessmen" exploit the lack of regulation and the abysmal working conditions and pay in China. The only defense seems to be "Hey you are getting cheap stuff at WalMart so what are you bichin' about."

But the fact of the matter is that China has probably done more harm to the USA over the past 5 years than any nation on the planet. And what does our "leadership" do...they send Paulson and clods of his ilk to China to be humiliated while begging the Chinese to be nice in the future.

Don't worry about terrorists boys and girls...that's mostly bull*****...if anything brings down our nation it will the stuffed shirts who populate Washington and the businessmen who value profit above nation.

I can't (an won't) argue your point here.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by WI wide body

Rick,

What did you expect to see in China...yellow skinned devils with horns coming out of their heads just because it's a communist nation?

That was one of my points. Our nation has done some horrific things in the past because of the great "Communist threat" and yet China gets a free pass. Why?

My former company got into a Technical Assistance agreement with China where some of our guys had to go there to assist at the factories. I was never asked but I would have went in a heartbeat. But they had some real horror stories about what actually went on at those plants.

So I'm not pointing fingers here...I did many short assignments in foreign nations for my former company after I retired and I often felt as if I was part of the problem!

I've never expected to meet mean people in any country and I rarely have. No one will believe me, but I swear that people who grow up in real communist countries have the best sense of humor in the world. I have lots of friends from eastern Germany and China and it's non-stop comedy with those folks. When you grow up that way, a sense of humor is all you have that's really yours.

And China will have bad working conditions for a very long time to come. If you killed 1 billion of them tomorrow (or a million a day for three years), they'd still have a labor pool twice the size of ours. We are so spoiled that we can't understand a place like China that has a long history of famine and overpopulation. When you say hello in Mandarin by saying, "Have you eaten yet?", you get an idea of where they're coming from.

[Jim727]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

That would have been impossible. China was never a Soviet client state, while Cuba was. We were able to do business with China because of that and the fact that they offered us a good counterbalance to Soviet power. And I'd say Cuba has PLENTY of exposure to the U.S. way of life, far more than China had until around Deng's later years. Aside from the millions of family members living in the U.S., Cubans are bombarded with Radio Marti and plenty of other U.S. propaganda or cultural broadcasts. And Cuba was a U.S. territory before 1959, so there are plenty of folks still there who remember those days.

I don't think corporations' financial interests and our government's security interests are necessarily mutually exclusive.

Cuba: interacts with the U.S. from the media and propaganda.
China: interacts with the U.S. because of business interests and the gov'ts need to do something for the economy, etc.

The difference is the source of information and personal interest. Assume Coca-Cola opened a plant in Cuba. They need sugar - the cheaper the better - and Cuba can provide it. When Cubans are getting their paychecks (sustenance) from a U.S. company their interests change and their demands and behavior change. The gov't has an interest in some stability by not pulling the plug on the job and cash-flow stream.

Being a client state is not sufficient difference. I have also spent lots of time in the "other" side of the Iron Curtain. You are on-target about their sense of humor and appreciation of change, but they can also provide a model for how Cuba could develop differently if we would change our methods.

Are corporate and government's interests necessarily different? No - but I think they are becoming increasingly so.

Jim

[WI wide body]

Originally Posted by dd74

I worry less and less about China. If our economy goes south - which it has - so will theirs.

Cuba is a vacation spot for the entire world but us. The embargo we have in place is a false front that is a politically expedient hot potato thrown from one presidential administration to the next. A real president will lower it and invite them into our so-called democracy. But as politics go, the more things change (death of Castro), the more they stay the same (nad-less Presidents lacking guts to lower the embargo).

If you want real worries, look to Russia. That country is quickly turning rogue starting first with Putin.

I tend to agree with you about Russia. It is still the only other super-power that can actually pose a threat to us. However, since Mr. Bush has "looked the man in his eye" and probably saw Putin's very soul we really don't need to be concerned. Right?

But as long as we allow China to stockplie our dollars we are inviting economic disaster. China's policy has been very purposeful and direct. Just imagine if the situation was reversed and China held all the cash and some other nation was sending billions of dollars of goods into China. Those guys would put a stop to it in 15 minutes and not even offer a reason!

[WI wide body]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

I've never expected to meet mean people in any country and I rarely have. No one will believe me, but I swear that people who grow up in real communist countries have the best sense of humor in the world. I have lots of friends from eastern Germany and China and it's non-stop comedy with those folks. When you grow up that way, a sense of humor is all you have that's really yours.

And China will have bad working conditions for a very long time to come. If you killed 1 billion of them tomorrow (or a million a day for three years), they'd still have a labor pool twice the size of ours. We are so spoiled that we can't understand a place like China that has a long history of famine and overpopulation. When you say hello in Mandarin by saying, "Have you eaten yet?", you get an idea of where they're coming from.

I agree with you Rick. Communism/socialism is not the great evil as we have been taught. I also had about 5 or 6 trips to Budapest (actually the factory was in Oroshaza) and some of the guys at the plant became at ease with me and I even had a few dinners at their homes. It was an eye opening experience to listen to them They were very aware of what was going on in the USA and they seemed to love to make fun of the inadequacies of their system.

[MRM]

Originally Posted by WI wide body

I agree with you Rick. Communism/socialism is not the great evil as we have been taught. I also had about 5 or 6 trips to Budapest (actually the factory was in Oroshaza) and some of the guys at the plant became at ease with me and I even had a few dinners at their homes. It was an eye opening experience to listen to them They were very aware of what was going on in the USA and they seemed to love to make fun of the inadequacies of their system.

WWB, that's the kind of thinking we in the hinterlands always suspected came out of Madison and Milwaukee

Seriously, Communism was one of the greatest evils ever foisted upon mankind. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a usefull idiot (to use a Soviet term) or horribly naive and uneducated. It's not a subject that is open to debate. Count the bodies.

Rick and I have had this discussion before, but when you meet any mainland Chinese 40 years old or older, he or she survived the Cultural Revolution. Except they don't call it that there. They call it The Ten Years of Upheaval, or, more commonly, they just refer to the date. Nothing more needs to be said. You know how many millions of people died of starvation during the Cultural Revolution? Neither does anyone else. You know how many millions of people died of starvation under Stalin - in the 20s and 30s? Nope, that number is lost to history too. Too many to count accurately. And then the Terror came in the 50s and the blood really ran. 10 million? 12? 20?

Say what you want about Nixon and Reagan, but one quarter of the world's population lives an infinitely better life today because Nixon went to China. Talk to anyone who was there during the time and they will tell you things started to get better the day Nixon arrived. And the day Mao died things got even better.

And because Reagan had the balls to tell Gorby to tear down the wall, another quarter of the world's population lives better. I just heard a lecture by Allan Greenspan. He credited the success of the 1990s to the fall of the wall, not the tech boom. He said the utter failure of the planned economy lead to the fall. We in the west had assumed that the East lived at about 80 the standard of living as Western Europe. It turned out to be more like 30-40%. That's right, because of Communism all of Eastern Europe lived a standard of living that was one third the level of what it should have been. And that's just the standard of living, to say nothing of the lack of freedom.

That's why your hosts had such a wicked sarcastic sense of humor. They had to laugh at the absurdities of life or die. By the way, of Eastern Europe, Hungary was the most free, independent and western. You'd have loved East Berlin or Beijing.

[Racerbvd]

Originally Posted by Jim727

Cuba: interacts with the U.S. from the media and propaganda.
China: interacts with the U.S. because of business interests and the gov'ts need to do something for the economy, etc.

The difference is the source of information and personal interest. Assume Coca-Cola opened a plant in Cuba. They need sugar - the cheaper the better - and Cuba can provide it. When Cubans are getting their paychecks (sustenance) from a U.S. company their interests change and their demands and behavior change. The gov't has an interest in some stability by not pulling the plug on the job and cash-flow stream.

Being a client state is not sufficient difference. I have also spent lots of time in the "other" side of the Iron Curtain. You are on-target about their sense of humor and appreciation of change, but they can also provide a model for how Cuba could develop differently if we would change our methods.

Are corporate and government's interests necessarily different? No - but I think they are becoming increasingly so.

Jim

sorry Jim, but it already happened, and the Cuban Government keeps a tight reign on it. I'm not trying to defend/take sides, but a guy I worked for while in college lost everything (taken from him, lucky to get out alive) told me some stories. This man, luck to be alive when he got to the USA, build a business (legal, not drugs) empire starting with nothing but hard work. I also have other friends who happen to be Cuban who travel back once a year (yes, it is legal, I can't figure it out either, but I like my cigars) and I get their incite (one that there is no way that I could have, or anyone not in their shoes) and it really is the most confusing thing that I know of, no you can't do this, but you can do this, they are our enemy, yet we have a base ther From what I'm told, the Cuban government keeps a tight grip on everything, and limits what outsiders can see. I honestly have no answer, I know that I have seen & been told, some say yes to the US stance, others no, but my friends still say their families are very limited by the government I know this doesn't answer any questions, but it is what I know(don't know)

[Rick Lee]

I certainly understand the irony or inconsistency of our hardline stance against Cuba vs. our "constructive engagement" with China. Think back to the time when Nixon went to China and think if things would have been better for us, had he gone to Cuba instead and ignored China. I'm not saying it was a zero-sum game. He could have done both. But Cuba, at worst, was/is a nuisance, while China was/is a huge strategic and economic opportunity. We had the luxury of being able to isolate Cuba and punish Castro, witholding legitimacy from his regime. Not so with China. And I'd say Nixon's opening with China is still bearing a lot of fruit to this day.

The fact that our intel agencies are totally inept at countering China's vast, vast incursion into our university labs, high tech jobs and even some gov't. contractors is our own fault, not China's. You guys know who John Pike is? Check out www.globalsecurity.org. John (he runs that site) and I were discussing this about a year or so ago. I mentioned how China does not consider Americans of Chinese descent to be "Chinese-Americans", but rather "overseas Chinese". John said, "No. They consider them to be assets." Don't look at Chinese folks here with suspicion. But don't assume any of them came here because they hate China. I've never met a Chicom who wasn't at least as patriotic about his homeland as any American is about his own.

[Hard-Deck]

I've never met a Chicom who wasn't at least as patriotic about his homeland as any American is about his own.

I certainly have. In fact, this Chinese legal imigrants son that I know, who was born in the U.S. said, "Dad, why wasn't I born in China like you." Dad responded, "If China was that damned great you would have been born in China."

[Rick Lee]

Obviously, the folks who had problems with the government in China - dissidents, Falun Gong, Dalai Lama followers, etc. - don't feel much loyalty to the the place. But they are a very tiny minority.

[Jims5543]

I have posted this many times before. I have a good friend from Cuba, he came over with his parents in the boat lift. His older brother stayed behind feeling Castro was good for the country.

My friend was finally able to go back to Cuba to see his brother for the 1st time since he left, finally being able to afford to, his life here in the USA was not a charmed one but he gets by.

He was devastated by what he saw there. He had rented a car and drove to his brothers "house". No windows, no screens, cold running water, barely electricity.

Its a huge deal to own a bicycle there, and if you own a boat, or grow a garden and try to sell your wares, you will be thrown in jail. Its illegal to sell or barter your trade, if you get caught your in big trouble.

Medical attention is dismal, there are great medical facilities but they are for the elite not the common people.

If your poor in Cuba, you stay poor, you barely eek out a life. Castro makes sure of it.

My friend was a big cheese with a rent a car, he gave everyone a ride in the car they were all amazed by it. Some rode in a car for the 1st time in their life. If you own a bicycle your doing good for yourself there.

I know nothing of China and how they treat their people, but I do know from my friend how people are treated in Cuba and its sad.

Oh and before you tell me we are just as bad in the USA, all you need to do is fill out some forms here and you get aid. You get welfare, you get food stamps and I honestly do not know how much else you can get as I never explored that lifestyle, but I work in the ghetto's here in Florida and it seems the really poor do pretty good for themselves. Crappy houses with Mercedes Benzes in the driveway. We seen to treat our poor a little better here.

[legion]

I was always under the impression that we were still punishing Cuba for seizing the assets of U.S. citizens without compensation.

[Rick Lee]

Compared to much of the rest of the world, we have no poverty here at all. I can imagine how bad it is in Cuba, as I've seen it in China. Poor here means not being able to afford your cable bill one month. First thing I saw in China as I walked across from Hong Kong into Shenzhen was a cop hit a woman. A few feet farther, I saw child beggars with no legs, dragging themselves along to try to catch up with me. And a block later I saw my first ever Carrera GT. Cuba is poor because of their government. You're only rich there if Castro likes you. In China you can be rich, you can be middle class or you can be poor. Sure, making an enemy of the gov't. isn't gonna help you any. But you do have a chance there, even if you're not with the gov't. People are poor there because there are simply too many people living on too little arable land. That place is more capitalist than this country is. But they have a lot more mouths to feed and the money there is not very well spread out across the country. It will get better, but it will take a while.