Consumer Protection Focus

[Superman]

You've all heard it. Toy imports from China with lead. In some instances, massive amounts of lead.

Parents are angry. Having their kids and their toys tested. Disappointed with what they're learning.

A local TV news reporter was heard saying that only one investigator exists for this.

Sure, I'm kicking a beehive here. Somebody's got to do it. I hope to hear your views. Does it make sense to step up our oversight of imported toys? Or does it make more sense to stop worrying, and let parents find their own ways of figuring out whether toys are dangerous or not? No public testing or data available? Do we, the gubmit, prohibit toys imported with crazy high lead levels? Or do we let anything and everything in, and let parents worry about it.

If we let anything and everything in, and just tell parents to "deal with it," then some impacts can be anticipated. Of course, private businesses will pop up to sell information to parents. We might have several different companies each testing the same bazillion toys and publishing/selling the results at cost-plus-something. Some of you think that's a great idea, perhaps because it will cost a lot more money this way, and maybe add a couple of new corps to the NYSE. Another reliably predictable impact is that kids will eat lead, get dumber and make lousy adults. That'll be expensive to the rest of us.....that missing productivity that we accepted when we chose to save a few tax dollars.

One more thing. I've worked for an agency that regulates business. Gubmit workers in this position notice the political fight. Their budgets are constantly under attack from the conservatives, who blindly hate business regulation. The presence of only one single investigator for this is plausible. The attacks against these gubmit offices can be pretty vicious. At this point, the agency that is supposed to be tracking and regulating lead levels......is frustrated. They will be blamed, although the folks who eviscerated their budget are the ones actually to blame. Now, frankly, that will be reversed. Parents want better service than that. Better protection. So, there will be funding. And for a while, the attacks will subside. And then resume.

Now.......your comments.

[sammyg2]

From wiki:
"Lead paint is paint containing lead, a heavy metal, that is used as pigment, with Lead chromate (PbCrO4, "chrome yellow") and lead carbonate(PbCO3, "white lead") being the most common. Lead is also added to paint to speed drying, increase durability, retain a fresh appearance, and resist moisture which causes corrosion. Paint with significant lead content is still used in industry and by the military. For example, leaded paint is sometimes used to paint roadways and parking lot lines."

Almost all paint nowadays contains lead. The only difference is that the lead content is much lower now than it used to be, but it's still there.
I believe this issue has been blown way out of proportion by the media in order to create a sensationalistic buzz.
If oyu own a house built before the mid 60's, you have lead paint all over it. Maybe many, many layers. Should you move out? tear down the house? Burn it? Make the kids go live somewhere else?
No that would be nonsense. but I'd venture to guess that kids will get exposed to substantially more lead from old houses that they will ever get from toys from China.
Onyl problem is, that doesn't make for as interesting of a story, now does it?
All we can do is to keep things in persective and not let the media brainwash us.
"The Force can have a strong influence on a weak mind." .... Obe Wan Kenobi

[Rick Lee]

I think all houses that still have lead paint are disclosed as such in appraisals nowadays. Sort of like with asbestos, it's best left alone. Removing it just exposes more of it to people.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Superman

You've all heard it. Toy imports from China with lead. In some instances, massive amounts of lead.

Parents are angry. Having their kids and their toys tested. Disappointed with what they're learning.

A local TV news reporter was heard saying that only one investigator exists for this.

Sure, I'm kicking a beehive here. Somebody's got to do it. I hope to hear your views. Does it make sense to step up our oversight of imported toys? Or does it make more sense to stop worrying, and let parents find their own ways of figuring out whether toys are dangerous or not? No public testing or data available? Do we, the gubmit, prohibit toys imported with crazy high lead levels? Or do we let anything and everything in, and let parents worry about it.

If we let anything and everything in, and just tell parents to "deal with it," then some impacts can be anticipated. Of course, private businesses will pop up to sell information to parents. We might have several different companies each testing the same bazillion toys and publishing/selling the results at cost-plus-something. Some of you think that's a great idea, perhaps because it will cost a lot more money this way, and maybe add a couple of new corps to the NYSE. Another reliably predictable impact is that kids will eat lead, get dumber and make lousy adults. That'll be expensive to the rest of us.....that missing productivity that we accepted when we chose to save a few tax dollars.

One more thing. I've worked for an agency that regulates business. Gubmit workers in this position notice the political fight. Their budgets are constantly under attack from the conservatives, who blindly hate business regulation. The presence of only one single investigator for this is plausible. The attacks against these gubmit offices can be pretty vicious. At this point, the agency that is supposed to be tracking and regulating lead levels......is frustrated. They will be blamed, although the folks who eviscerated their budget are the ones actually to blame. Now, frankly, that will be reversed. Parents want better service than that. Better protection. So, there will be funding. And for a while, the attacks will subside. And then resume.

Now.......your comments.

Another reliably predictable impact is that kids will eat lead, get dumber and make more liberals. That'll be expensive to the rest of us.....that missing productivity that we accepted when we chose to save a few tax dollars.

Sorry; couldn't resist.

I think the environment in which we live today demands that our gubmint "do something". While I am as anti-regulation as the next guy (as long as that next guy is a fellow, level-headed conservative), the camel's nose has long since gotton under the tent on this one. He's standing right in the middle of it and farting.

The environment to which I refer is one where we, as U.S. citizens, have come to expect that government standards be imposed on much of what we buy. O.k., damn near everything we buy. I actually agree that is one of the more useful functions of gubmint in our consumer society. It's kind of a chicken or the egg question as to how we wound up like this, but even at that level, the question is moot today.

No one individual has the means or werewithal to ensure the products they buy are safe. Private sector "product testers", with very few exceptions, tend to eventually wind up with a financial "dog in the fight". We have seen this domesticaly, and have instituted governmental standards. These should apply in kind to any and all imported goods. I think the tax money it will cost to have the required oversight on this is a good investment in ourselves.

[Burnin' oil]

The problem was discovered, right? That's what the Consumer Product Safety Commission is for. I think the problem is overstated anyway.

[gr8fl4porsche]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

Almost all paint nowadays contains lead. The only difference is that the lead content is much lower now than it used to be, but it's still there.

This is not true. A vast majority of all paints manufactured today have zero lead content. Even industrial coatings do not contain lead due to the dangers present when the coatings are removed prior to repainting.

Lead was only added to the highest quality paints. This is why you normally only find lead on trim and exteriors. Interior wall paint rarely has lead since it typically was a cheaper product than what was used on windows and trim.

Some manufacturers claim to have never used lead in their coatings.

I recently tried to purchase paint with lead for a friend who was testing for AT&T - could not find any. I talked with several major manufacturers of coatings and none produced any products with lead.

I am not sure why the Chinese toy manufacturers are using lead based paint? Seems like a pricey product to use on toys which cost almost nothing to manufacture. Have you seen the price of lead lately?

[Tobra]

People need to look out for themselves before they look to Uncle Sucker. There is an agency in place that caught this, so the regulation is doing something, is it enough? Probably.

[Rick Lee]

The CPSC loves stuff like this. It justifies their existence and guarantees a budget increase for next year. Nothing wrong with being vigiliant in one's mission/duty. But rest assured, this China thing is the catalyst for expanding this agenecy. Mark my words, the CPSC will get a LOT bigger and more powerful now.

[livi]

Sounds like Sweden. Leave the responsibility, choices and saying to the authorities. Then sit by the kitchen table clenching your fist in your pocket complaining about the highest taxes in the world and how little you get back from it.

We have all kinds of institutions that test, for example, toys for small children. Long lists of assessments of everything from carriers to bottles. Sure it is a service to the consumer and I basically think it is a good thing.

But, it is all chewed, swallowed and processed information digested in a manner that leaves very little 'taking charge' of your life to the general public. Furthermore the info is not always correct, making the fist-clenching procedure even more intense.

[sammyg2]

gr8fl4porsche, let me know if you need some lead based paint and what color. We have several hundred gallons of it most of the time where I work. I've seen as much as 1000 gallons on-site at one time before. We use it to paint storage tanks, pipes, etc.
Our paint vendor delivers it, all we have to do is call.

Interior latex prolly doesn't contain any measurable traces of lead but most industrial paint and high quality exterior paint have at least a trace of lead in it.
The replacement for lead was titanium dioxide or something like that, costs way more. Lead is cheaper and works well.

[Superman]

I see we've got the usual proportion of denial and ignorance. And at least one poster who understood the issue.

Jeff, I'll thank you for your considered opinion, and spot you this: I agree that it makes sense for an independent organization (government, frankly) to test and regulate this market. Further, it makes sense to staff that effort so that the job can get done. Trust me when I tell you that, without a doubt, what's happened is that the liberals got their regulation law, and the conservatives got what they wanted when they underfunded the piss out of this agency so they could be confident this regulation would not interfere with anybody's profits. But I think you and I probably agree that there are limits to what we should regulate and how much. This protects children. In a way that parents could not accomplish without the regulation and program. But this doesn't mean we should prohibit restaurants from using transfats.

By the way, perhaps it was Tobra....somebody thought this was a small, isolated problem. Watch at least one news program per week before you jump in these discussions. Millions of toys have been imported with prohibited amounts of lead. So much so, that Christmas shopping for toys this year will be challenging. Shop early.

[Moneyguy1]

It is the individual's responsibility to test for these things, Supe. I never go shopping for painted goods without my complete Gilbert Chenistry Set so I can do an analysis on each and every painted object I want to buy. Sometimes the store managers have a problem with my on-site testing, though.....

Of course, I also check everything at the grocery store as well for known chemicals that might be added. This is a bit more difficult, but after all, my well being is my job, NOT the job of government.

Damn governments anyway!!!! They are the cause of ALL our problems because they are run by people. Wait...who runs the private sector...Who spect the toys in the first place.....Designed in America.........

OOps.....

[john70t]

[cough..in my best neocon voice]
Any kid that is stupid enough to put any old toy in its mouth deserves what it gets. Besides, there is no definitive proof that lead harms children.

[lendaddy]

I haven't read past Sup, but the U.S. government did not discover the lead and/or force the recall, did it?

[Superman]

Okay, now I know you guys are rattling my cage on purpose. There was a kid in Grade school who used to fistfight me once a week, just because it was fun seeing me that mad. I can remember "seeing red." Nothing but red.

(okay....deep breath.....go to my 'quiet place'......)

I dunno, Len. I have a suspicion that the underfunded agency that's been doing a pathetic job of policing this is not how the story exploded. I suspect that somebody's dad was a chemist who knew how to look up the local news team's phone number. After that, yes. The gubmit agency would have alerted the importers that no more should be shipped.

Thanks, guys. Your input, and some of the silence, helps me understand. For the most part, the private sector is better than the Politburo when it comes to serving markets and needs. But we still need to pool our resources and hand certain jobs to an organization that we like to think we can count on. The devil is in the details, and how to tell which market should be public and which should be private.

Nobody suggested that childrens' welfare be sacrificed at the altar of tax savings. That's encouraging.

[lendaddy]

Originally Posted by Superman

Okay, now I know you guys are rattling my cage on purpose. There was a kid in Grade school who used to fistfight me once a week, just because it was fun seeing me that mad. I can remember "seeing red." Nothing but red.

(okay....deep breath.....go to my 'quiet place'......)

I dunno, Len. I have a suspicion that the underfunded agency that's been doing a pathetic job of policing this is not how the story exploded. I suspect that somebody's dad was a chemist who knew how to look up the local news team's phone number. After that, yes. The gubmit agency would have alerted the importers that no more should be shipped.

Thanks, guys. Your input, and some of the silence, helps me understand. For the most part, the private sector is better than the Politburo when it comes to serving markets and needs. But we still need to pool our resources and hand certain jobs to an organization that we like to think we can count on. The devil is in the details, and how to tell which market should be public and which should be private.

Nobody suggested that childrens' welfare be sacrificed at the altar of tax savings. That's encouraging.

I just did some looking and all stories call it a voluntary recall initiated by the parent company "RC2". Sounds like self regulation to me. I certainly don't see where we give government the game ball on this one.

[Superman]

No. No game ball for the gubmit. That's not my point. I'm just observing that, according to the news, parents are calling for more effective oversight. Gubmit oversight has been poor. I know how this happens. Libs get the law, cons starve the program for funding. This is especially predictable/universal when the regulation is commercial. LOTS of pressure to underfund business regulation. Pressure to free the individual.....not so much. Pressure to free commerce.....terribly forceful. Undeniable. It is a well known principle of public policy administration that agencies that regulate business eventually become "captured" by the commercial forces in the industry. Then, eventually, something like this happens to reawaken peoples' desires and calls for regulatory action. And the liberal forces retake the agency. For a while.

And it's a chance to reconsider what we want and expect from government. So, that's the point. America is asking the question "What, if anything, do we do about this problem?"

I will say this though, Len: While gubmit gets no better than a D+ in its failure to adequately police this industry, I'm going to laugh hard if I start thinking you're giving some credit to the industry. C'mon. They did this for profits. In business, all legal profit opportunities are explored, and some not so legal. It's a cost/benefit analysis. Now that they've been busted, for purposes of public perception and to avoid government sanctions, they've instituted this "voluntary" recall. if you're thinking this comes from the kindness of their hearts, you just don't get it. Do these public perception manipulation tactics work on you, Len?

[Moneyguy1]

Supe...

It is simply a mindset. Very difficult to change one's thinking, even when irrefutable evidence is presented.

Government is far from perfect. But, then again, so is the private sector. In an ideal world, the two create a tension that "balances" the system.

I am sure that there are those who will argue with that concept, depending on what side of the fence they fall on. Over the years I have seen posts by the private sector guys moaning about "why doesn't the government do something about xxxx?" and then in othe posts state that government interferes too much with business and industry. I wonder...Who is more responsble for the outflow of jobs to the rest of the world? Government or the private sector? That might make a good topic al by itself.

[Superman]

Bob, the Big Picture discussions go South in a hurry here. Useless. I chose this specific topic for its discussion potential. I knew there would be a low proportion of pure anti-gubmit hatred since it is the health of children we're talking about and as you so eloquently pointed out, in the absence of an independent, reliable organization providing information and perhaps oversight, parents would have no hope of being able to protect their children.

These guys know, though sometimes not consciously, that they want certain things from government. That's my highest hope these days in my discussions here. Recognition that government is a necessary tool. The bigger picture, the balance of regulation of commerce versus the economic wide-open-throttle.....I don't got there much these days. And it's not because of job outsourcing. At least, not directly. I think the outsourcing thing will eventually find its equilibrium, and it will be at a point where American affluence also falls closer to world equilibrium. It's that consumerism that I wish away. In my humble view, America would be better off WITHOUT the white-hot roaring economic furnace. The happiest people I know, by far, don't work or work a couple of days a week. They heat with wood. They read. Drink tea. Help each other out. Live in a quiet place. The life of commuting, slaying dragons, squeezing your "personal life" into a few hours a week.....that's not the life of happiness that Madison Avenue wants you to think it is. But.....I don't go there. America will, I think. But not consciously, I fear. It will be foisted on our grandchildren.

[Jeff Higgins]

I think a lot of the anti-gubmint sentiments we see today stem from a mixture of confusion on citizens' part and over reaching on gubmint's part. Citizens are confused over the role gubmint is supposed to fill in our lives. Gubmint has taken advantage of that confusion and has far over stepped its originally intended responsibilities.

Overseeing foreign trade (and interstate trade) is one of the very clearly stated responsibilities of our federal government. Maybe if they stuck a little closer to their job description and didn't stick their noses into things they have no business regulating, things like this would not be chalked up as yet another gubmint intrusion. It appears as though we have reached a point where big gubmint has become so intrusive, that even the things they are supposed to be doing are taken as just another of these meddling busy-body bureaucratic boondoggles. The knee-jerk reaction to any mention of expanding government authority or regulation has become "oh *****, not again". Sometimes it is needed. This is one of those times. Too bad we can't get them to "undo" the vast majority that wre not.