Ever drive a true SMG transmission car?

[the]

You know, a true "automatic-manual" like the Ferrari F1 transmission, or BMW SMG (sequential manual) transmission? (Not the fake ones, regular slushbox automatic transmission cars with button style shifters).

Pretty interesting experience. Definitely has a far more "mechanical" feel than a normal slushbox automatic. Like a regular manual, you have to get used to it, and have to use some skill and timing to make it shift smoothly. The BMW SMG shifts pretty quickly, although I'm sure not as quickly as the Ferrari version.

It is interesting, but I can see why it might not be super popular in cars like BMWs. While it is more "active" than a regular automatic, it still is nowhere near a real manual transmission, in feel or control. It is closer to an automatic, even when shifted "manually."

So I can see where it might not appeal to manual transmission drivers.

But as an automatic, it is not very smooth. You can't just jump in and drive it very smoothly. You have to let off the gas a bit on the 1-2 shift, esp. if you are trying to move reasonably quickly, otherwise you get a kind of stalling/delay feeling.

So it definitely would not appeal to a "normal automatic" type of buyer. If you put the average BMW automatic driver into an SMG car, I think they would bring it back and tell you something is wrong with the transmission.

An interesting technology, though.

[nostatic]

I sold my GTI because my left foot was bored and lonely.

[kstar]

What BMW model did you try it out in?

I really like the new M5 and would love to drive one with the SMG.

Best,

Kurt

[the]

650CSi.

I forgot that you had the DSG GTI, NS.

Too much like a regular automatic, huh?

I don't know about the GTI, but the BMW does some cool things. Like gives a perfect "blip" of the throttle on downshifts, I guess to match RPMs. Sound racy! You can feel the computer "working" the clutch, and you can affect how it does it by throttle position and timing of shifting. And when you park it, if you leave it in gear, it won't roll away!

The 650 is a nice driving car. Big, and VERY heavy, to be sure. But it doesn't feel all that big when you are driving it, even in the turns. You very clearly feel the weight on acceleration, though. Nice cruiser, not slow, but to make it fly, you'd need 500+ hp to move that weight.

[nostatic]

Most of the reviewers say the DSG is better than the BWM box. The DSG revmatches and it incredibly quick and mostly smooth. Much smoother than the BMW.

It was great on the track. I did both manual shifting and also just let it auto shift in sport mode. Sport mode rocked...I think I was about a second quicker running that way. But in the end I like having a greater degree of control. Manually controlling the clutch gives you the greatest amount of fine control and feel. With the DSG, even in manual mode, it's like a video game as opposed to a whole-body experience.

[epbrown]

Originally Posted by the

It is interesting, but I can see why it might not be super popular in cars like BMWs. While it is more "active" than a regular automatic, it still is nowhere near a real manual transmission, in feel or control. It is closer to an automatic, even when shifted "manually."

In BMW M3 circles, the SMG trans has its proponents but the used market seems more comfortable with clutch-actuated manuals. It seems less performance-related than worries about expensive repairs down the line, now that the earliest M3s are out of warranty.

For myself, I've test-driven and couple and found it novel and interesting; I don't think I'd mind owning one. The great benefit for me? The absence of a clutch pedal leaves more room in the footwell - nice for someone with size 15 feet.

[89911]

I looked at 540i's and some where equiped with the SMG. That transmission in that car was a failure in every way. They stopped producing them after only a year of production and even the salesman selling used ones talked my out of considering them. From a performance standpoint, they had the advantages. From a practical standpoint, driving in traffic and at less then performance speeds, the car drove rough and uncharacteristic for a $60k car. Either go with a 6 speed or tiptronic, at least in the BMW.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Interesting.

Closest I've driven was the Boxster S with tiptronic (which I know isn't the same). To be honest I hated it. It detracted from the experience and made it more boring. It was like driving a washing machine instead of a roadster, where your whole body (including left foot and right hand) are engaged in the experience. Also too much (expensive) electronic crap to break/fail - sorry, I HATE electronics in automobiles as a general rule. Every single one of my cars now (including the Mercedes) has an honest-to-goodness manual transmission. Easy, simple, time-tested. I trust them. By comparison, every automatic transmission vehicle I've ever owned in my life (I've owned three) has given me some sort of problem, up to and including requiring replacement of the transmission ($$$). I have to say "less is more" when it comes to gearboxes, although for a "1,000-miles-a-year" car it'd be really cool to have an F1 style paddle-shifter SMG type (and if money were no object, of course).

[Ronbo]

Don't these sequential manual transmission cars go through clutches terribly quickly? I seem to remember reading about the Ferrari/Maser/Aston clutches needing replacement around the 20K mile mark, or worse if you do a lot of driving in traffic. Not sure if it's the same with the BMW SMG or the VW DSG.

[the]

Originally Posted by Ronbo

Don't these sequential manual transmission cars go through clutches terribly quickly? I seem to remember reading about the Ferrari/Maser/Aston clutches needing replacement around the 20K mile mark, or worse if you do a lot of driving in traffic. Not sure if it's the same with the BMW SMG or the VW DSG.

Hmm, that's a good point. This is a car that a friend of mine just bought used, with around 40,000 miles on it, from a used car lot, with no PPI!

It is still under factory warranty, and he has an aftermarket warranty. But I bet those don't cover "wear items" like clutches!

I drove it maybe 5 miles, but could smell a slight clutch or brake burning smell afterwards. The 1-2 shift felt like it had a slipping clutch, a pretty noticeable delay and lag when in automatic mode. But I thought that was intentional to make it smoother. Now I wonder.

[nostatic]

For the DSG there is a fairly expensive "service" that is required every 40K.

[CurtEgerer]

Not sure if SMG is setup the same way on the 650 as the M3. Is it possible to completely disable Stability Management/Traction Control? And is there a shift-speed selector? The M3 has these. If the 650 doesn't, the SMG would basically suck. The ONLY way I would drive my M3SMG was to first disable electronic aids then select P6 on shift speed. It was an absolute ball to drive in that mode. Much faster up/down and more consistent shifts than any traditional manual (there's a reason all top series race cars use them). Took some miles behind the wheel to really learn how to use it. I put 75,000 miles on mine (SMGII) with no problems.

I suspect SMG would not be much fun on a heavy car with somewhat numbed-down suspension/steering such as the 650. I drove a 650 cabrio 2 nights ago. Unfortunately, with an auto trans. Nice cruiser I suppose and gobs of torque. But it felt like driving a Camaro Z28 with a big block ....

[CurtEgerer]

Not exactly SMG, but here's the beauty of a sequential gearbox

[Noah930]

There was a big debate about this on OT (roughly the time when nostatic was shopping for his GTI?). Someone posted how he was just so sure that these semi-manual gearboxes would make good old-fashioned stir-it-yourself gearboxes obsolete in short order. Supposedly I was sticking my head in the sand for not believing that. But as Todd has found out, as nifty as this technology is, it removes you a bit from the experience of driving. The computer may be faster and smoother than I at swapping gears, but that's not always why driving enthusiasts buy cars.

[gprsh924]

Drove a few E36 M3's today. I liked the manual better, but in sport mode on the firmest shift settings in the SMG it was fast. The tires chirped going from 1-2 on a full throttle 0-70 blast.

Hopefully my dad decides that the M3 convertible is worth the extra 9K over the 330CI

[stuartj]

Ive driven a few, the Alfa, Mr2 ad the m3. Really fast changes, perfect heal toe down changes. It sucks.

I thought the new M3 was, at least initally, only being relaesaed with a manual and no was SMG available

[the]

Originally Posted by gprsh924

Drove a few E36 M3's today. I liked the manual better, but in sport mode on the firmest shift settings in the SMG it was fast. The tires chirped going from 1-2 on a full throttle 0-70 blast.

Hopefully my dad decides that the M3 convertible is worth the extra 9K over the 330CI

The U.S. E36 M3 doesn't have the SMG transmission, from what I recall. It's just the regular slushbox automatic. SMG is a totally different ballgame.

[SlowToady]

Curt,

I don't mean to get off the topic of the thread, but how does the gearbox in that BMW in the video work? Isn't it that there's a clutch, but you only need it for getting into 1st from a stop? How does it handle the downshifts? Does the driver still have to rev-match them, or is there some computer doing it?

[gprsh924]

Originally Posted by the

The U.S. E36 M3 doesn't have the SMG transmission, from what I recall. It's just the regular slushbox automatic. SMG is a totally different ballgame.

My mistake, i meant to type E46

[epbrown]

Originally Posted by Ronbo

Don't these sequential manual transmission cars go through clutches terribly quickly? I seem to remember reading about the Ferrari/Maser/Aston clutches needing replacement around the 20K mile mark, or worse if you do a lot of driving in traffic. Not sure if it's the same with the BMW SMG or the VW DSG.

The BMW and Audi variants both make clutches lasts longer, because the computer is better at shifting than a human could ever be. From what I've read BMW is dropping SMG to license Audi's DSG (they've changed the acroynm, iirc) which everyone seems to love.

My own opinion is that electornics are great for engine management - give me fuel/throttle maps and variocam/variaram and all that, fine. When you've got to ask permission to drive (however poorly the computers think you do so), that's when we've got a problem. Especially irksome is everyone's insistence that you can't drive without such aids - what were people doing the 100 years before the technology came out? Engine management, fine. Driver management, not so good.