"We need to pass this bailout or nobody will be able to buy homes..."

[Porsche-O-Phile]

This is what Paulson and his ilk are saying this morning and essentially what GWB said last night. My question (and I haven't heard anyone else ask it yet) is, "wasn't that what the LAST bailout (the government takeover of Fannie/Freddie) was supposed to ensure DOESN'T happen? To guarantee that there's a supply of mortgages for qualified individuals so that the housing market doesn't literally go to $0.03 on the dollar?"

This just seems a huge oversight and I'm stunned that nobody else is mentioning it. Are the attention spans really that short? Will they forget about this $700B bailout in four or five weeks when another, bigger one is demanded?

We're screwed.

[rammstein]

I still don't know what I would do... I don't know if I support a bailout or not. Its a rare moment of indecisiveness for me. There are merits to doing it, and merits to not doing it.

[VINMAN]

We need to let it hit bottom. People need a reality check. Maybe that will change societies "I want more than my neighbor" attitude.

[widebody911]

Originally Posted by VINMAN

We need to let it hit bottom. People need a reality check. Maybe that will change societies "I want more than my neighbor" attitude.

+1

And I wouldn't shed a tear if some of these CEO/'investment banker' types were blindfolded and stood in front of a brick wall.

[hardflex]

The more I think about it the more I'm convinced to not do it. We'll get by, there will be some changes. This crap went overboard starting in 1999. We were fine till then.

If we don't pass it, Sellers will carry their own notes, prices will adjust down until people CAN afford to live there. Car companies have finance wings. Oil Companies will finance their own credit cards. Local banks and Credit sources will fill the niche, the way it should be.

The Basic problem is that American's don't make enough money to get by without Credit. Our Savings rate is below 0. That's the one we need to solve.

[competentone]

Who are you going to believe?

The people who were telling you just a few months ago (even weeks ago in some cases) that the "economy is strong" and that things like the bailout of Bear Stearns, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, etc, will "stabilize the temporary problems in the credit markets"?

Or are you going to believe people like Ron Paul who has been warning about the risks for years?

Paulson, Bernanke, Bush, etc. are all telling us "we'll be much worse off if we don't do this bailout." Yet they didn't have the ability to see this coming.

Ron Paul has been talking about this occurring for years. He is saying we will not be worse off without the bailout -- he'll admit it is going to be bad either way, but is arguing that allowing the market to operate freely -- rather than having the government step in and attempt to manipulate it to some desired effect -- is the better thing to do.

Now is the time to be listening to those who have had the foresight to see this coming; it is not the time to be following the advice of those who have been telling you "everything is fine."

[Jim Richards]

corporate nanny state. corporate welfare system. oh joy.

[IROC]

My fundamental problem is "where are we going to get $700 billion? Where does the money actually come from? We don't really have it, do we? We have to borrow it, right?

Also, I've never heard what the scenarios entail if we don't go with the bailout. All I've heard is "it's bad, really bad". Define "bad"!

[Jim Richards]

Iraq's oil will pay for that, too.

[hardflex]

I watched Bush say last night "the markets are not behaving right" after preaching the Market to us for 8 years. Maybe they ARE and we are trying to artificially manipulate them.


I believe this is 'gut check' time. You either believe in the Market system or you don't. If you believe, you can't be for this bailout.

[Z-man]

Originally Posted by VINMAN

We need to let it hit bottom. People need a reality check. Maybe that will change societies "I want more than my neighbor" attitude.

Yes, but unfortunately, most Americans do not understand the concept of living within their means. And this goes deeper than just the current housing crisis.

Some proof of this:
1. Well, the obvious current housing crisis. "Yes, honey - we could make due with the $400,000 home, but the banks say they will spot us for $750,000. So why not get that mansion across town instead? With those adjustable rates they have now, we can do it -- and won't have to worry one bit..." BTW: Last year, I PAID OFF my house - 3 years early on a 15 year mortgage.

2. How many luxury cars out there are being leased? Probably more than 1/2 the high end cars out there are not bought. Why? Because we Americans just love to keep up with (or exceed) the Joneses. "They have a BMW 5 series in their driveway? Well, I MUST GET A Mercedes S-class! And the current leasing rates are so reasonable, why not?!?" Disclaimer: While I do not lease cars myself, I do understand that in many circumstances, leasing does make sense. However, all too often people use leasing as a way to show others that they are rich, when in reality they are living above their means.

3. Credit Card debt / Revolving debt: Not sure what the average dept of CC's are nationwide, but I am sure there are many, many folks with $20k + in CC debt. That is crazy! And it doesn't seem to bother them! Instead of trying to get out of a tremendous debt (not to mention the sky high interest rates), they choose to continue to buy on credit and pay only the minimum amount due. Ludicrous! If you can't manage your credit cards, then cut them up and use cash! If you do have a bit of dept on your cards, then PAY THEM OFF instead of spending more!! Disclaimer: I use my credit cards heavily. But I pay them off completely with each payment.

I think folks need to return to "old school values." Minimize debt. Live within your means. If you don't have the funds necessary, then don't buy the needless stuff. Those concepts will go a lot further in repairing our economy than government bailouts and foreclosures...

My $0.42,
-Z-man.

[VINMAN]

Originally Posted by IROC

My fundamental problem is "where are we going to get $700 billion? Where does the money actually come from? We don't really have it, do we? We have to borrow it, right?

My fundamental problem is, why do WE have to bail out greedy scumbag bankers and irresponsible homebuyers??

[rammstein]

That's just it- I feel like if we let everyone get stung, then there is a consequence. SURE- the economy as a whole will feel it, and it will wash over to me in some way, but this other solution probably will too, without giving people the opportunity to change their ways.

I made a decision 3 months ago. When our car's lease is up (stipper accord), I am not going to buy it. The reason- I would have to finance it. I am done financing things. I finally have a job that pays my bills. I would LOVE to go lease a new M3. And I could- our credit is more than good enough. But- cars are simply stupid. You go and 'buy' a $25k car. You pay 4% interest on the $20k after putting $5k down. While you are paying interest for 5 years, the value of the car will drop from $25k to $10k. Its just ridiculous. I spent so long not having money, that now I think too much about these things, and I can't do it anymore.

I mentioned it on a thread awhile back. I will only buy the next car all cash. Which means i will have to find something for around $3 - 5k.

I guess after realizing I wasn't going to be a millionaire overnight selling office buildings (never sold one), I had to figure out how I was ever going to build wealth. The only way is to not spend money, and invest what you have in ultra-low risk stuff like savings accounts and CDs.

We are bombarded every day with BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY from everyone. Screw them all- they are trying to rob you. Keep your money. I am keeping mine. And seeing how ****ty the dollar is, maybe I will convert my money into platinum or something.

[Rot 911]

It seems like they want the bailout so people can keep living in the same irresponsible way they have for the last 10 years or so. I say no bailout and let people sober up.

[competentone]

Originally Posted by IROC

My fundamental problem is "where are we going to get $700 billion? Where does the money actually come from? We don't really have it, do we? We have to borrow it, right?

Also, I've never heard what the scenarios entail if we don't go with the bailout. All I've heard is "it's bad, really bad". Define "bad"!

The Federal Reserve creates the money literally "out of thin air."

The effects on the economy are really going to be about the same either with or without the bailout (because the Federal Reserve will still be engaged in its continuing bailout of banks even without the bailout.)

The dollar will crash internationally, banks and businesses will fail, inflation will ravage our economy, etc.

The difference between passing the bailout package, or allowing market forces to correct the problems is all about who will bear the brunt of the carnage.

Without the bailout, those who created the situation will be hit the hardest.

With the bailout, everyone will be paying for the irresponsibility of those who created this situation.

Think of the aftermath from a hurricane; when the government steps in and gives money to people who built their houses along the coast, everyone across the country ends up "subsidizing" the lifestyles of those who have chosen to live on ocean-front properties.

A "financial hurricane" is going to hit our economy; we can let those who have been living the "ocean-front" lifestyle pay for their excesses, or we can pass the bailout package and make everyone across the country pay for what only some benefited from.

[widebody911]

[Superman]

We're in agreement. I would prefer to have my suffering now, honestly, responsibly, without borrowing my way around it. This bailout thing is must more of the same.......more debt to preserve our artificially high affluence. Sure, all the legislators are leaning toward the bailout. It's all about the "markets."

And again, I do not accept the theory that what's good for the "markets" is automatically good for the "people." America has come to lean way too far in the commerce direction, and away from the social direction. That doesn't mean I am a welfare fan. "Social" means family, community, etc. This consumerism has SEPARATED people more than it has brought them together. Perhaps a little misery will reverse that.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Originally Posted by VINMAN

We need to let it hit bottom. People need a reality check. Maybe that will change societies "I want more than my neighbor" attitude.

No, it won't.

[Seahawk]

This is interesting, and not political at all. It is from the NYT...from 1999

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0DE7DB153EF933A0575AC0A96F9582 60&sec=&spon=&&scp=1&sq=30%20sept%201999&st=cse

[Superman]

Originally Posted by widebody911

Interestingly, what's going on right now looks very much like another popular business tactic. It's called the "poison pill." By the time Dubya leaves office, this nation should be just about tanked.