The world has changed--NOT!

[Moneyguy1]

Stunning response, snow........absolutely stunning.

And just WHO can say the world would be useless without people? It did fine without us for over four billion years.

[Tobra]

Originally Posted by JCF

We are not very evolved creatures.

sure we are, hunter-gatherers, perfectly evolved for that.

There will be war as long as there are more than one group of people on the planet.

Originally Posted by Moneyguy1

The earth would probably be better of without homo sapiens. Or at least with far fewer.

Too many people, too little in renewable resources.

"Make Room! Make Room!"

what was that book, "Population Bomb", perhaps by Hardin.

We have too many and are breeding fast, I could make a list of those we should kick off, but the ones who should stay would be a shorter list.

Originally Posted by Nostril Cheese

The real problem is the thought patterns of people like snowman. constantly negative and close-minded.

and he is not even that liberal

[kstar]

We are a way for the universe to know itself. Some part of our being knows this is where we came from. We long to return. And we can, because the Cosmos is also within us. We're made of star stuff.- Carl Sagan

Emphasis added is mine.

Best,

Kurt

[JCF]

Originally Posted by Tobra

sure we are, hunter-gatherers, perfectly evolved for that.

That was 2,000,000 years ago for gods sake.
What have you done for us lately !

[rammstein]

Originally Posted by Superman

But yeah, we know humans cannot be relied upon to act responsibly. If I thought they could, I would be 150% against gubmit regulation.

This is an amazing quote to read, because it shows that we agree on one thing, but not on how to address it. Really sums up our differences in viewing things.

I agree that humans cannot be relied upon to act responsibly. But... this is exactly my justification for being against government regulation- the government is run by Humans, and therefore cannot be relied upon to act responsibly. If the government could be run by robots or vulcans, then perhaps I'd be for it running us.

[kstar]

Emphasis added by me.

Originally Posted by rammstein

This is an amazing quote to read, because it shows that we agree on one thing, but not on how to address it. Really sums up our differences in viewing things.

I agree that humans cannot be relied upon to act responsibly. But... this is exactly my justification for being against government regulation- the government is run by Humans, and therefore cannot be relied upon to act responsibly. If the government could be run by robots or vulcans, then perhaps I'd be for it running us.

That's am almost subtle but extremely powerful "touché"! I agree 100%.

FWIW, I'd go with the Vulcans.



Best,

Kurt

[Superman]

Originally Posted by rammstein

This is an amazing quote to read, because it shows that we agree on one thing, but not on how to address it. Really sums up our differences in viewing things.

I agree that humans cannot be relied upon to act responsibly. But... this is exactly my justification for being against government regulation- the government is run by Humans, and therefore cannot be relied upon to act responsibly. If the government could be run by robots or vulcans, then perhaps I'd be for it running us.

There is even more we can agree on. You'll get no quarrell from me when you assert that humans are not sufficiently mature to self-govern. I watched "I Robot" last night, or parts of it. Read the book decades ago. I digress.....

So we can agree that humans are poor governors. A few are decent, but most succumb to greed and other base instincts.

Where we disagree, perhaps, likely, though it is hard for me to understand the opposing conclusion, is which is the lesser of those two evils. Sadly, I would not expect increased peace and security in a society with no government. No police. No military. You guys seem to understand very clearly the implications of failing to keep an effective military for national defense reasons. I think it odd that you expect aggressive and greedy behavior on the part of other nations, and good-citizen behavior from fellow Americans. That's fairy tale stuff. Especially when you consider that America is renowned for its take-what-you-can-get economic and social systems.

[snowman]

Superman,

You are clearly a socialist or even communist. Please take offense as it was intended. You are what you say you are and you cannot avoid any label that fits your position.

The world doesn't mean sht without humans. The world, without humans, is a meaningless hunk of rock, nothing more, without any value whatsoever. We will make this world better by killing off the less fit, whoever they are. Thats exactly what evolution is about, survival of the fittest. Or are you a fundamentalist of some kind that doesn't buy evolution? If so you are still out of luck. The devil has a mission to accomplish the same thing as Darwin.

PS In case you like being a socialist or communist, both have been proven to be the ultimate evil so far. Those are the FACTS.

At this point, I can see that only the capitalist system, or some form of it, has any chance of saving humanity from itself.

[livi]

I think most of us tend to give our species too much credit. Between the lines I read a subconscious desperate hope for humanity. We believe in different social and economical structures. Short term (relatively speaking) one strategy may work, in other circumstances the opposite may work.

In the long run however, I suspect we are doomed. Perhaps we will be saved by Evolution, making future generations less primitive, but I doubt it.

[Tobra]

Originally Posted by JCF

That was 2,000,000 years ago for gods sake.
What have you done for us lately !

I did not do it, God did.

[sammyg2]

hunter-gatherers 2 million years ago? Nope.

We have not found ANY evidence that man Man was around until around 5000 to 7000 years ago. Pyramids, working with metal, languages, it all happened very, very quickly.
Man started building incredible structures all around the world and started writing things down and figured out a great deal about the heavens including very accurate calendars and maps of stars.
Coincidence? No.
There is an incredible amount of evidence that man existed then and ever since then, but there is no evidence of man's existance prior to that time except for some ape-like skeletons they found.

Mankind as we know it has only been around for a short time. There may have been some man-like creatures before, but they were not man as we know today.

[kstar]

[sammyg2]

Ah, the cave of Lascaux.
They really do not not know how old those drawings are, they think they MIGHT be as old as 30,000 but they can't prove it and they admit it. They are GUESSING. I suggest these paintings are only about 6000 years old.
This is taken from their official website:

The range of methods and tools used to date the cave art is somewhat limited, partly because the figures are not in a position favourable to stratigraphic dating most of the time and also because of the nature of the materials used. In the eventuality of a single period of Palaeolithic occupation of the site as at Fontanet (Ariège), Combarelles or Rouffingnac (Dordogne), and to some extent, at Lascaux, it is reasonable to note the contemporaneousness of the wall paintings and the material found on the floor of the cave. Whether lithic or bone, or in the form of products of combustion, these elements are more easily dated.

An identical approach applies to the pigment which had fallen to the ground during the painting or drawing. They have been sealed in the archaeological levels, at the foot of the decorated walls and are therefore contemporary with the datable archaeological artefacts, and can be dated using radiometry (bone, carbon) or possibly typology (lithic or bone industry). During the past few decades several attempts have been made at direct dating of the paintings using the radiocarbon method (J. Clottes and M. Lorblanchet). The ever-improving performance of radioactive measuring instruments today allows analyses to be made of matter weighing only a few milligrams. Nevertheless, only the paintings and drawings which incorporate charcoal can be studied in this way; in most of the Perigord caves, as at Lascaux, typing of the pigment shows that the basis of the material used on all the figures is metal oxides, iron or manganese, materials that are impossible to date using the suggested methods.

[Rearden]

Originally Posted by snowman

The world doesn't mean sht without humans. The world, without humans, is a meaningless hunk of rock, nothing more, without any value whatsoever.

Absolutely.

I don't understand how people separate humans from the "natural" earth. We are of this earth, and so is everything we create. Sulfur-spewing factories and nuclear waste are as natural as a bird's nest or a fire pit.

[kstar]

Sammy:

Do you believe in the efficacy of any of the numerous scientific dating methods?

If so, which ones?

Just curious.

Best,

Kurt

[DARISC]

Hmmm.....could this thread be veering off into a scintillating discussion of Intelligent Design?

[kstar]

Originally Posted by DARISC

Hmmm.....could this thread be veering off into a scintillating discussion of Intelligent Design?

I saw that coming at Sammy's post.

I won't take this thread that way anymore . . .

The "God" thread already has ID going as a sub-thread.

Best,

Kurt

[JCF]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

hunter-gatherers 2 million years ago? Nope.

We have not found ANY evidence that man Man was around until around 5000 to 7000 years ago. Pyramids, working with metal, languages, it all happened very, very quickly.
Man started building incredible structures all around the world and started writing things down and figured out a great deal about the heavens including very accurate calendars and maps of stars.
Coincidence? No.
There is an incredible amount of evidence that man existed then and ever since then, but there is no evidence of man's existance prior to that time except for some ape-like skeletons they found.

Mankind as we know it has only been around for a short time. There may have been some man-like creatures before, but they were not man as we know today.

You forgot the

[livi]

I am very fond of the evolutionary life of OT threads. Members of this board have such high class, flexible minds that it is almost impossible preventing an interesting topic from evolving into the next. Almost by it´s own.

Friggin beautiful and very entertaining. Being an optimist I would say that count for something good about humanity. At least in this group.

I´ll drink to that! After all it is Friday night.

[Superman]

It is frightening to notice there are people who think like Snowman.

But it would soften the blow a bit if we could hear his description of how the world would be structured under his reign. Give us that, Snowman. Outline for us your vision for a social and economic system that you would consider ideal. What, if any, government would exist? What controls would there be on humans' behavior, if any? The amusement value of reading your description would, I think, help take the sting out of hearing your disdain for humans.