Saudi Justice

[Superman]

I think you guys should talk about the rape victim who was sentenced to a flogging and six months in jail. Sure, you guys will rail about Muslims. But between the rants, I wonder if any of you guys have considered Dubya's situation. The House of Saud and the House of Bush are.......let's just call it "intertwined" since a more accurate term would carry a sexual connotation. The perpetrators of 9/11 were Saudis.

Given the international relations position we are in, what do you think Dubya's options look like? Is he in a position to apply pressure to the Sauds? What do you expect he will do? What would you prefer that he do? Note the difference.

On a related note, we've just become surprised to find there is an oil inventory shortage.

[legion]

Thank you Mr. Moore. What looney theories will you be proposing in you next movie?

[Nostril Cheese]

What theories, exactly?

The connections between the Bush family and the Saudis are well known. As far as this issue goes, Bush wont do s**t.

War on terror.. hmm. maybe we ought to invade Saudi Arabia? just a thought.

[Mule]

So tell me oh brain of steel, are you now willing to admit that islam is a murderous cult, if it means you can slam Bush in the process?

[island911]

Originally Posted by Superman

I .... The House of Saud and the House of Bush are.......let's just call it "intertwined"....The perpetrators of 9/11 were Saudis.

....

Did you know that the House of Bush and the House of "Superman" are.......let's just call it "intertwined" ? ....in fact, they are in the same country. --shocking, I know.

[Superman]

Originally Posted by Mule

So tell me oh brain of steel, are you now willing to admit that islam is a murderous cult.......?

Mule, you have trouble distinguishing between inference and deduction. In many instances, you point to a specific event and then draw a general conclusion about a larger population. I don't think I'm going to get the light to come on for you, but I'll keep trying. The above quote is an excellent example. "Islam" is not a murderous cult. The murderous cults are groups within Islam. This is probably an unimportant observation to you. To someone who understands Logic, your misunderstanding is fatal to your argument.

[Hugh R]

Raise you hand if you don't think the USA sucks the proverbial dick of the King of Saudi Arabia for access to oil. I hope none of you has missed the point that Saudi Arabia, means literally the Arabia of the family of Saud. Its a kingdom and the Saud family absolutely owns the entire country.

[Chuck Moreland]

Originally Posted by Superman

Mule, you have trouble distinguishing between inference and deduction. In many instances, you point to a specific event and then draw a general conclusion about a larger population. I don't think I'm going to get the light to come on for you, but I'll keep trying. The above quote is an excellent example. "Islam" is not a murderous cult. The murderous cults are groups within Islam. This is probably an unimportant observation to you. To someone who understands Logic, your misunderstanding is fatal to your argument.

I don't understand your point. The 6 months imprisonment and 200 lashes of the rape victim was not imposed by a few extremists.

Wasn't this a legal sentence handed down by the justice system, under sharia law?

[Superman]

Yes, this sentence was handed down according to Saudi law, by Saudi courts. Would you, like Mul, take the position that "Saudi courts" and "Murderous cult" are synonyms? And if so......then I REALLY would like to hear you answer the question above regarding Dubya's options and likely course of action versus your preference.

[livi]

Let me see if I understand you correctly. The Bush Gang (not to be confused with the brilliant Gadd Gang) are dependent on the good will of the Saudi family, not least for economical reasons. This has been a good long relationship for both parties. Correct so far?

Enters a poor rape victim that, besides have got gang banged, further has apparently earned her self being whipped half to death.

In the eyes of any morally intact individual a completely baroque turn of events.

Now you ask yourself, what if anything is poor Bush going to do about it. Should he speak out in contempt of such hideous mal justice. YES. Will he speak out. NO. Hearts have no place in politics. At least not if it will potentially cost you bitterly. Alas.

But maybe I misunderstood the whole question.

[Jeff Higgins]

Islam is simply the religious branch of Arab culture. Mohamed did no more than add legitimacy (in their eyes) to the way they have behaved for eons, by claiming God instructs them to behave this way. Arab culture and Islam are so intertwined it is impossible to seperate the two. Folks that are Arab but not particularly devout Muslims have remarkably similar values to folks who are devout Muslims but are not Arab. Islam is the Arab vehicle for exporting Arab values just as the Roman Catholic Church is the vehicle for exporting (and perpetuating) Roman values. So to blame this behavior on whacked-out Muslims is functionally equivelent to blaming it on whacked out Arabs. You only have to be a member of one of these groups to justify this behavior to yourself and your peers.

So where does that leave us? We are not dealing with "just" a religion or "just" a culture. The two are inseperable. And they believe they are "right". Everything we see them as doing "wrong", by our standards, they see as "right" by theirs. They honestly believe we are the unenlightened ones in this relationship. We see their radical factions as violently trying to change us. They see our political factions as trying to change them by economic and political pressure. From the receiving end, both means must appear equally unsavory. We are at a stalemate. Culturally, economically, politically, religiously, and idealogically. We both want the other to change; we are both convinced we are "right".

This is way bigger than Duybya. Show me a Western leader who has dealt affectively with this. What would be "effectively" anyway? Getting them to change to our way of thinking, to our value system? That ain't gonna happen, kids. We need to realize that. Do they have to change, and if so how "much", for us to continue to have diplomatic and economic relations with them? I am sure they are struggling with the same questions. They are selling oil and maintaining diplomatic relations with countries that are vastly different than themselves, to the point of repugnancy. Just as we feel about them.

About the only way we can succesfully continue this relationship is to not look too deeply behind each others' borders. Physical borders as well as cultural. The old "you don't tell me what to do, and I won't tell you what to do" kind of relationship. Either side imposing its will on the other as a prerequiset for doing business is a recipe for disaster and ongoing strife. We cannot "win" that way. For either side to change, that change must come from within.

We see that "change" taking place on both sides. The Western world is increasingly cowing to Islamic factors within its own borders. All in the name of cultural acceptance and diversity. On the one hand, we want to accept Muslims here, but on the other, we want to "correct" their behavior in their own countries. We want Muslims, but we want them to be more like us. "Islam lite" so to speak.

The Arab world is changing from within as well. Cultural influences from the West are getting very pervasive in Arab countries. The old guard decries that as much as we decry their cultural invasion of our countries. Internet access, satelite radio and TV, free travel, etc. are slowly working to "westernize" their culture. Young Arabs are getting increasingly bold about demanding change. After all, "how ya gonna keep 'em on the farm after they seen this...?" They want Western freedoms. Who can blame them?

So what do we do? Wait. Just wait. I think in this great struggle, Western ideaologies will win. They make more sense. It is more of a "natural state" than the Arab ideologies. Nothing has to be hidden or oppressed to engender Western ideals; much has to be to perpetuate Arab. The time will come, as we become more and more "global", where Western culture will "win". Everyone who has ever had a taste of it likes it better than whatever they had before.

[Chuck Moreland]

Sup, You started the thread so help me understand.

You give the muslims a free pass on the barbaric acts. You stretch to blame it on George Bush.

You want Bush to be the world-police in muslim countries?

[Superman]

Another evaluative bullseye from Jeff Higgins.

You mention:

".....About the only way we can succesfully continue this relationship is to not look too deeply behind each others' borders....."

I agree with that. But there is a problem. We're occupying the country that is in the geographical and cultural CENTER of their world.

You also mentioned that cultural intermingling is happening, and is unavoidable. I suspect this does not bode well for expectation of future relief from terrorism.

Gosh I......I just wonder......wonder if there is any connection between the fact that they hate us for our ideology and our imperialism - and the fact that we are the most industrialized country in the world and they are sitting on an ocean of crude oil. Could it just possibly be true that we have been busy asserting ourselves into their affairs?

And then there is the question of energy independence. If it were possible, a Presidential call to become 80% energy independent during the next decade would be one of the most impressive political coups in the history of American politics. And in spite of all the folks here who seem to be pessimistic about our chances of achieving this......I believe it. I think we can do it. And I think we should. In fact, I think we MUST. We should be waging war........on our own dependence. That, my friends, would be leadership.

[Chuck Moreland]

Could it just possibly be true that we have been busy asserting ourselves into their affairs?

Isn't this a euphemism that means the US is an obstacle to wiping out Israel and the jews?

What other specific affairs is the US interfering with?

[Superman]

Originally Posted by Chuck Moreland

Sup, You started the thread so help me understand.

You give the muslims a free pass on the barbaric acts. You stretch to blame it on George Bush.

You want Bush to be the world-police in muslim countries?

Don't pretend to be this dense.

I, like any other Western person, thinks this Saudi court decision is abominable. It also happens to be a fairly extremely strict and conservative interpretation of the Koran. That is part of my point, Chuck. Follow closely. The family with which the Bushes have this intimate and longstanding relationship with.....the Sauds.....are in that part of Islam that finds our (Western) cultural abhorrent. This is not the only interpretation of the Koran. This is the ultra-conservative Muslim group. The Sauds. Saudi Arabia. Home of the 9/11 terrorists. The ultra-conservative sect of Islam.

In other words, Chuck......our cozy, loving relationship with Islam is with the group that abhors our culture and supports the murderous terrorism.....but sells us oil. In the meantime, we attack the a Muslim nation that is ultra-liberal. Probably at the behest of the Sauds, frankly.

And that leaves Dubya as nothing whatsoever except a pawn. He is "owned" by the portion of Islam that wants to kill us. It is no wonder you guys pretend that all of Islam is murderous. It is not. Just the part that gets its dick sucked by our "president."

Hugh is right, and I suspect he is more angry than he comes across in this thread. Anybody who is paying attention would be. Dubya is not going to do anything. Or say anything. He's going to take it like the pawn he is. Same with the speeches a few days ago from the Iran guy and the Argentina guy. Sadly, they are right. America is being set up. Guys, this is not WWF. It is Chess. And what you are seeing is a resounding defeat in progress. The players include China, Saudia Arabia, North Korea, Iran, Argentina, etc. They've got a dunce at the wheel of America, and they know that.

[Superman]

Originally Posted by Chuck Moreland

Isn't this a euphemism that means the US is an obstacle to wiping out Israel and the jews?

What other specific affairs is the US interfering with?

Unbelievable, Chuck. Unbelievable.

[Dottore]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

The Arab world is changing from within as well. Cultural influences from the West are getting very pervasive in Arab countries. The old guard decries that as much as we decry their cultural invasion of our countries. Internet access, satelite radio and TV, free travel, etc. are slowly working to "westernize" their culture. Young Arabs are getting increasingly bold about demanding change. After all, "how ya gonna keep 'em on the farm after they seen this...?" They want Western freedoms. Who can blame them?

So what do we do? Wait. Just wait. I think in this great struggle, Western ideaologies will win. They make more sense. It is more of a "natural state" than the Arab ideologies. Nothing has to be hidden or oppressed to engender Western ideals; much has to be to perpetuate Arab. The time will come, as we become more and more "global", where Western culture will "win". Everyone who has ever had a taste of it likes it better than whatever they had before.

I've said this before elsewhere, but the absolute best strategy against Islamic extremism is to get all the Arab boys and girls f_cking like rabbits - with condoms.

If the US would just put it's best minds to work on getting this done, there would be peace in the valley and you would be golden.

[Mule]

Originally Posted by Superman

Mule, you have trouble distinguishing between inference and deduction.

Is that similar to "it depends on what the definition of is, is?

In many instances, you point to a specific event and then draw a general conclusion about a larger population.

Actually. and I know this is tough to conceive of for a pc leftie as you are, I didn't make a decision based on one event or, how I feel, as you guys do. I did some research and formed conclusions based on what the facts say (again, not how I feel).

I don't think I'm going to get the light to come on for you, but I'll keep trying. The above quote is an excellent example.

That is probably the most correct statement you have probably ever made. Why you say? Because I have probably forgotten more on this subject than you will ever learn. And I understand that as a devout pc leftie, facts don't matter, cause once again, it's all about how you feel.

"Islam" is not a murderous cult. The murderous cults are groups within Islam.

If that is true then you could make the EXACT same claim about naziism.

This is probably an unimportant observation to you. To someone who understands Logic, your misunderstanding is fatal to your argument.

Could you please point out the mis-understanding?

[Mule]

Originally Posted by Superman

Another evaluative bullseye from Jeff Higgins.
We're occupying the country that is in the geographical and cultural CENTER of their world.

Actually you are showing your ignorance on the subject. The geographical and cultural CENTER of their world is Saudi Arabia. You may have heard of Mecca, Medina and the mosque of ali? Is that the reason they bombed the WTC once and crashed planes into it twice and attacked the pentagon, blew up the Cole, bombed embassies, etc?

You also mentioned that cultural intermingling is happening, and is unavoidable. I suspect this does not bode well for expectation of future relief from terrorism.

Another rare instance where you are correct.

Gosh I......I just wonder......wonder if there is any connection between the fact that they hate us for our ideology and our imperialism - and the fact that we are the most industrialized country in the world and they are sitting on an ocean of crude oil. Could it just possibly be true that we have been busy asserting ourselves into their affairs?

Could it be that we took them from a culture of herding goats & wiping their asses with their hands & enabled them to buy Ferrari's by the boat load? The nerve of us.

And then there is the question of energy independence. If it were possible, a Presidential call to become 80% energy independent during the next decade would be one of the most impressive political coups in the history of American politics. And in spite of all the folks here who seem to be pessimistic about our chances of achieving this......I believe it. I think we can do it. And I think we should. In fact, I think we MUST. We should be waging war........on our own dependence. That, my friends, would be leadership.

A good start would be to persuade Teddy Kennedy to allow those windmills near his estate.

[Superman]

Yes, this sentence was handed down according to Saudi law, by Saudi courts. Would you, like Mul, take the position that "Saudi courts" and "Murderous cult" are synonyms? And if so......then I REALLY would like to hear you answer the question above regarding Dubya's options and likely course of action versus your preference.