Machinist question on turn & mill CNCs

lendaddy · 11-27-2007, 05:22 AM

I know we have a few master machinists here, so I value your opinions. We have a potential new project and we would need to buy/lease a turnkey turn & mill CNC. We have already met with Mori Seiki and I want to be sure we meet with a few other industry leaders. Which manufactures are tops in this equipment area? Thanks guys,

charleskieffner · 11-27-2007, 05:38 AM

hitachi-seiki.

Porsche_monkey · 11-27-2007, 05:40 AM

Have you seen the number of auctions lately? Why would you even consider buying new? There are hundreds of cnc machines out there dirt cheap.

lendaddy · 11-27-2007, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PBH

Have you seen the number of auctions lately? Why would you even consider buying new? There are hundreds of cnc machines out there dirt cheap.

That's a fair question. This a unique situation where production guarantees are required and the purchase of a dedicated turnkey machine is a deal breaker. The product is extremely complicated and my customer wants "guarantees" from not only us but the equipment mfg.

The project will/would be very lucrative and we can't afford the time or risk of trying to piece meal a pre-owned setup together. The machine really needs to hit the floor running.

lendaddy · 11-27-2007, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charleskieffner

hitachi-seiki.

Thanks I'll look into them.

BGCarrera32 · 11-27-2007, 06:18 AM

You really make no mention of the size of the part, what you are turning, expected volumes, tooling requirements, do you need dual spindle or live axis, bar feeder...?

Bang for the buck accuracy vs. productivity nobody beats Haas Automation.

www.haascnc.com

What do you plan to do for CAM software, of anything?

lendaddy · 11-27-2007, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGCarrera32

You really make no mention of the size of the part, what you are turning, expected volumes, tooling requirements, do you need dual spindle or live axis, bar feeder...?

Bang for the buck accuracy vs. productivity nobody beats Haas Automation.

www.haascnc.com

What do you plan to do for CAM software, of anything?

The part fits within an 18" x 2.5" x 1" window. No bar feed, this would be a fixtured setup, 4130 material. Volumes are ~5k-10k parts first year ramping to 25k in three years.

I am not the machinist in our company, I know just enough to be dangerous and maybe not even that much

I just need to set up meetings with a few industry leaders so we cover all our bases and get the best possible information not only for us but for my customer.

Tim Hancock · 11-27-2007, 06:45 AM

Lendaddy, I don't know alot about high end machining centers other than we have a few relatively cheap Fadals on our shop floor....so no help from me on the hardware.

I am wondering however, how you can expect to make money on this job compared to an already established machine shop? IOW, are you sure this job will pay for itself? I know the company I work (special machine building) for can't compete with an actual machine shop when it comes to mass production machining even though we a good variety of machines.

Porsche_monkey · 11-27-2007, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lendaddy

That's a fair question. This a unique situation where production guarantees are required and the purchase of a dedicated turnkey machine is a deal breaker. The product is extremely complicated and my customer wants "guarantees" from not only us but the equipment mfg.

The project will/would be very lucrative and we can't afford the time or risk of trying to piece meal a pre-owned setup together. The machine really needs to hit the floor running.

In that case Haas. Pick a model, agree on a price, then have them make samples for you as a condition of issuing a PO. That will verify tolerances, tools, and cycle time. You should be present for the run.

I guess cash flow prevents you from buying outright?

lendaddy · 11-27-2007, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Hancock

Lendaddy, I don't know alot about high end machining centers other than we have a few relatively cheap Fadals on our shop floor....so no help from me on the hardware.

I am wondering however, how you can expect to make money on this job compared to an already established machine shop? IOW, are you sure this job will pay for itself? I know the company I work (special machine building) for can't compete with an actual machine shop when it comes to mass production machining even though we a good variety of machines.

The director of the project is a friend of my fathers. This does not mean there won't be any competition exactly but we just received a non-binding letter of intent today. We have target numbers and so far it looks very good. I have to nail all the numbers down securely before we move and this is a big part of that.

I'm not sure I understand the second part, this would not be a custom built machine. The programming and fixtures are the turnkey components.

lendaddy · 11-27-2007, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PBH

In that case Haas. Pick a model, agree on a price, then have them make samples for you as a condition of issuing a PO. That will verify tolerances, tools, and cycle time. You should be present for the run.

I guess cash flow prevents you from buying outright?

We certainly will have to finance the equipment and having production/capabilities guarantees(or as close as is reasonable) from a world leading mfg will help in that department.

Does Haas still have a good name? I've heard bad things about "designed in America/made in China" in regards to them.

CJFusco · CJFusco's Garage

CNC Music Factory?

the · 11-27-2007, 07:18 AM

Please, please, please read any proposed lease very carefully. Equipment lessors make used car salemen look like saints. Most equipment leases are tremendously skewed in favor of the lessor, have all sorts of almost unconscionable provisions.

Pay special attention to the "end of term" provisions. Those are the provisions that deal with how and when the lease ends, and what happens when the lease ends. That's where they normally really stick it to you. These provisions are often intentionally vague and confusing.

Also, do not rely on ANY oral promises. They will flat out lie to you, and the lease will have an "integration clause" saying that only the written provisions govern, and there has been no reliance on any oral promises.

Leasing companies can really stick it to you. I've seen competitors of my businesses end up making $200K in lease payments for equipment worth maybe $20K. One poor lady leased a credit card processing machine (the thingy that you slide the credit card through) for something like $7500 for 3 years, and I was told you could buy the silly machine outright, brand new, for a few hundred dollars.

Carefully read, and fully understand, ALL provisions of any lease you sign. Really understand how the end of term options work.

Steve F · 11-27-2007, 07:21 AM

You will not be dissapointed with a Haas, they Rock

Plus service and support are fantastic .

BGCarrera32 · 11-27-2007, 07:36 AM

My Haas dealer, Productivity, Inc. in MN has been fantastic for service and applications engineering support. One thing to bear in mind with Haas is that the parts come out of California (not overseas) so in the rare event that something goes down it can be overnighted and installed next day. Most of the servos, belts, control boards, etc. that could fail are carried by most of the service guy's trucks already. If you are able to buy a Haas outright, the resale value a couple of years later will still be very high- that's why used ones are either completely worn out and 12 years old or they are 2 years old and only a few thousand off new.

Nostril Cheese · 11-27-2007, 07:38 AM

I would not buy new. I would be looking at used Haas or Fadal machines.

Porsche_monkey · 11-27-2007, 07:58 AM

My understanding was that Haas had a very good name. Even Jesse James uses them.

I have a Takumi, it has performed very well over the years. And a cheap Chinese knock-off that was very cheap (basically free), but no bargain given the service calls and down-time.

http://www.takumi.us/

BGCarrera32 · 11-27-2007, 08:47 AM

Haas has gotten better over the years and continues to offer more each year in the product line. They're like the 4th or 5th largest machine tool manufacturer in the world now. Are they a Makino? No, but they're 1/4 the price with 80% of the robustness and longevity. The servo drives are typically Japanese or British, the mill ball screws are Steinmeir (German) and the lathe I have uses Rexroth (Bosch) ways. Not sure where all the China slams come in on Haas...the machines are designed in Oxford, CA and some of the easiest machines to get parts for when needed.

I's also be willing to bet Jesse James has more money than most.

Porsche_monkey · 11-27-2007, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGCarrera32

I's also be willing to bet Jesse James has more money than most.

I doubt he paid for it. It seems to receive lots of promotion.

charleskieffner · 11-27-2007, 09:24 AM

love listening to these suggestions and NOBODY HAS HIT IT ON THE HEAD! NOBODY!

take blue prints

go to haas, go to mori seiki, go to hitachi seiki, hell go to everyjuan.

tell them how many widgets you want per hour.

tell them what finish

tell them your tooling allowance bucks.

tell them if you have existing tool holders. sandvik,iscar,mitsubishi,kennametal etc. saves bucks there.

tell them whomever makes MOST PARTS, LEAST CYCLE TIME, BEST FINISH, HIGHEST REPEATABILITY..............

and see who WINS!

watch the SH!! FLY! and chips.

w/new machines comes a tech guy who will program all tool paths x-y-z down to nats ass and make more parts in less time which = more profits.

...................NEXT...........after you have pitted all the machine tool companies against juan another and they all have promised you the moon, and they have literally beat the hell out of themselves trying to beat their competition..........

you then pit all the tooling companies against juan another and they repeat the above mentioned free for all slug fest and beat them selves silly trying to beat cycle times and finishes......................you then.............

pit all the coolant companies against juan another and let them beat them selves silly trying to make more parts, better finishes, less machine downtime, less haz mat to dispose of.

ASK ME HOW I KNOW ALL THIS CRAP!

sandvik
iscar
mitsubishi
komet
kennametal
carboloy...............................survivor of 1980's- 1990's machine tool wars!

i guarantee you after all the above..................somebody better come up with a incredible tool for you to even think of changing tooling, programming,coolants etc.

TRW air bag triggers by the MILLIONS. 304L looks like a threaded mushroom, filled with sodium azide. 36 QC checks. machined domestic and imported 304L and machinability changed every batch. cycle time 1 minute 4 seconds start to finish off of barfeed feed into hitachi seikis.

now do you think i miss that BULLCRAP dog eat dog eats dogs puppies testing regime??????

not in the least!