Gosh, this is scary stuff... http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/eek.gif

Not nearly as scary as King George III. Us (ex)colonists like to stay well defended!

Scary is what Jdub pointed out. Another school shooting happened this morning in San Diego. Spooky that we were talking about guns while that was happening.

Sigh. I wish the world were a little more peaceful, at least for kids.

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Mark Szabo
1986 911 Targa 3.2
1987 Escort 5-speed 1.9
The Porsche Owners Gallery

My father in law used to sell Sig's and I own a P226 and P229. I have visited thier factory in Schaffhausen, Germany and it is hands down the most impressive combination of old world craftsmanship and high tech no-know I have ever seen.

Let's face it, Germans have always been and will always be supreme engineers and manufacturers. I have owned and fired, berettas, colts and glocks and hands down, the SIG reins supreme. (hence the premium)

My .02 anyway.

mw

Weird reading this....I'm from the UK and working in NYC at the moment. Just heard about the San Diego shooting, 2 kids dead at the moment. In the UK handguns were made illegal after the "Dunblane" incident (a man shot something like 6 kids dead in a school in Scotland, he was quite a "normal" person till then and had no criminal record, I think). Seems to me guns are just bad. What are they for?? Hurting people ultimately. Of course, they can be outlawed and maybe criminals will still have them illegally, but we've got to start somewhere....I'm sure this view is very opposed to a lot of peoples' feelings on the BBS, but debate is good....!

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'75 911S Targa
http://member.aol.com/asaffery/my911s.html

I come from a long line of shooters and pilots. I did not check into the 'pilot' thread, but trust me, there's aviation in my chromosomes. And I believe there is substantial overlap between these two groups. My guns were stolen a few years back and I have not replaced them. Some of them are not possible to replace. but yes, I can handle a gun. Never dealt with handguns much though, just rifles.

Here's a little anecdote: When my sister was moving out of Lyman Wyoming, there was a big public controversy. someone had proposed a county ordinance that would have prohibited anyone from drinking in a bar while wearing a handgun. To drink, you would have to check you gun in with the bartender. The proposed ordinance was defeated by a wide margin. Be aware that this happened in a state where bars (which also serve as liquor stores) have drive up windows and will sell you a drink in a go-cup while you're sitting at the wheel with the motor running. Until it was the last state to cave into Federal (highway money) pressure, the drinking age in Wyoming was 17.

YeeeeeeHaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!

I'm guessing things are different in London.

[This message has been edited by Superman (edited 03-05-2001).]

Saffs,

I am a member of a target shooting e-mail list with a large number of UK members. What was reported about the Dunblane tragedy was that everyone knew that the killer was a bit "off", and was only allowed to keep his firearms permit because he was friends with the local police. I also seem to remember hearing that the official government report of the shooting was classified as some sort of state secret, and wouldn't be viewable by the general public for many years.

When I was in high school (which wasn't that long ago, 82-86) during hunting season, kids would hunt early in the morning, then bring their guns to school. Hell, many high schools had rifle teams. There were no shootings. Guns were much more acessable, and the violent crime rate was much lower.

What really gets me, it the notion that some people have that the mere presence of a firearm automaticlly turns someone into a potential murderer. A firearm is an inanimate object. It is a tool, like a hammer, or a chainsaw, or for that matter, a Porsche 911. Like any tool, it can be misused.

Rant on:

Seeing what is coming out of San Diego, I really wonder if these school shootings would still happen, if they weren't being sensationalized by the news media. Some ****head kid who is picked on because he isn't popular, decides he is going to get his picture on page 1 by killing some classmates. He knows Peter Jennings & Dan Rather are going to be talking about him for a few nights, and as a bonus, CNN will be showing his picture at the top and bottom of the hour for the next week. A year or so ago, some lunatic drove his car into a day care center playground near here and killed a couple kids. The local TV news covered it, and it made page 2 of the local section of the local (San Jose CA) paper. It never made CNN that I saw, and I have Headline news on pretty much all the time. What do you suppose the coverage would have been if he walked up and shot the kids? What difference does it make? The kids are just as dead.

Rant off.

I am going for a drive.

Tom

If you do not like guns - move out of the USA - to Australia or the UK.

If you HATE guns, how would you like to be the one to go door to door in the USA to take them from their owners? LOL
Thieves, rapist, and murderers feel the same way about breaking into a gun owners home.

BUT least we forget, the right to carry guns has nothing to do with crime prevention and everything to do with preventing a tyrannical government. Had our colonist not had guns, all of us in the USA would still be talking funny...

Things are different in London,
You can actually drink at 18yrs!
But I am wondering how the statistics would compare if you counted the number of injuries/deaths by firearms in the UK compared to the states percentagewise of course.
What firearms do inhibit in the states, is the type of petty brawling/violent crimes you see in the UK.
The Bars see more violent crimes, bottles/knives etc in the UK than in the States.
You can feel the aggression boiling, waiting to explode in the bars ,whereas people never seem to get to that stage over here in the states as they realise someone will just go and end it with their 'peice' they left in the glove box of their car!
I have spent the last 7yrs based out of the E. Coast USA and I have never seen a gun pulled out with intent to do harm!.
However I have seen a lot of blood spilt in UK bars!.
I do not agree with the way guns are controlled here, but beleive that there are some positive aspects to them being around.
This point of view come from someone who has lived on both sides of the big Pond!.
Ben

Lived in Germany for a long time, had a permit to carry and store at my house. Very difficult but if you were with the military you got what was needed in most cases. Very restrictive there but the criminals still got their guns.

Taking the weapons from law abiding citizens will only make them totally dependent on the govt for protection, and the people in govt. cannot protect themselves as it is. The constitution provides the means to do this and most of us will follow it.

Chuck Heston was my president until 20 Jan 01, now I have two men who are my leaders.

VIPRKLR... we need to get together and shoot... was trained as a sniper in my first life, then moved on.

.45 Kimber, 45.70 Ruger #1 for nostalga, Browning Citori for trap/skeet, 30.06 to "reach out and touch someone" and a 9mm Walther PPK for a carry weapon. Lots of other stuff but nothing exciting. Still miss the HK 93 I traded for a set of BMW motorcycle leathers in 1985! Want a .50 for "plinking" at 3 miles... knew of some Seals who did a very good job with the Barrett.

I support gun control, I use both hands!

JoeA

Shooting is great fun. I recently bought a >22 caliber conversion for my Kimber .45 which is my carry gun of choice, can shoot all day for almost nothing. It seems that in Philadelphia everyone carries. For hunting I use a 4" .357 Colt Python. I harvested a 10' alligator this year with the Python it did a great job. For all you environmentalists out their harvest is a nice way of saying killed!!!

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CM Wagner

1968 911 S Coupe
Light Ivory

i'm a dead shot with my Marlin Model 60. i won't go into details but i can hit things that most people can't see unles they have binoculars. when the weather gets warmer, i have a stupid VDO odometer (the biggest piece of ***** odometers ever made) that i am going to take out back and shoot 100 holes in. i'll take pictues of the before and after.

we have two 1200 foot long private aircraft runways behind our house. i practice shooting there when nobody is flying.

the gun I was looking to buy next is a Dragunov SVD, but good deals on them are getting harder and harder to find, so my next purchase will be a Romanian AK-74. i am holding out to find an AKS-74U "Krinkov" but all the gun dealers say "fat chance" at finding one. another item on the list is Finnish M63 Sniper rifle with a big Bausch and Lomb scope. as you can see, i'm into long distance shooting for accuracy.

because i'm picky as to what i want... until i find the EXACT gun i want i am sticking with the Marlin. it's dead-on reliable and a lot of fun to shoot.

obin

Artical 1 sec 8 says the USA is only to have an army for a period of Two years,During a time of war.Thats because the PEOPLE are the army.THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.What part of INFRINGED DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND. ALL GUN LAWS ARE A VIOLATION OF THE CONSTITUION. SEE Artical 6 para. 2 All LAWS AND TREATYS MUST OBEY THE INTENT OF THE CONSTITUION. Steve

[This message has been edited by SteveStromberg (edited 03-05-2001).]

Although I am politically quite conservative, I do not own a gun. I have three kids under the age of 6 and, as a result, can't consider myself a responsible gun owner regardless of how secure I think my weapons are. I wonder if the parents of the 15 year old that shot up his high school today consider themselves responsible gun owners. As I understand, he used one of his fathers guns.

Simply put, as an American, I have the right to own, or not own guns. I choose not to because I cannot be 100% sure that my kids won't find a way to get to them. I don't begrudge anyone from responsibly owning guns. I used to own a S&W revolver that I enjoyed target shooting. My only advice is to keep it seriously locked away if you have kids, and be prepared to accept responsibility for accidents that occur in their innocent (or not-so-innocent) hands. Once my kids are grown and out of the house, I look forward to getting back into the sport.

Do as you wish, but please don't criticize others as un-American if they err on the side of safety. It's a free country...lets keep it that way.

[This message has been edited by Mike Feinstein (edited 03-05-2001).]

Holy ****! Just went back and re-read my post. . .this is proof that the news has an effect. I spent a good bit of the day amazed at how the San Diego shooting affected me now that one of my kids is in public school (can't even imagine being one of those parents). Previously it would have never had such an impact.

I agree that as long as the bad guys have guns, the good guys should be allowed to defend themselves (not to mention target shooting and hunting). If I wrap my P-car around a tree at least I'll go with a smile on my face. Not sure those two kids in San Diego went with the same joy. The murderous kid with the parents gun adds a whole new dimension to this topic. Boggles the mind!



[This message has been edited by Mike Feinstein (edited 03-05-2001).]

I love trap (O/U) and load my own shells. I take out the "tree rats" around my house with a German .20 Weinrauch HW50. Nothing more accurate and consistant at short range.
Shoot metal silhouettes with my 12 year old son with a Ruger 10-22 with a carbon-fiber tension barrell, 24X scope, thumbhole stock, etc. Used to punch paper with a S&W model 41. A very good choice for the money in a .22. Also do IDPA (International Defence Pistol Assoc) using either HK USP, S&W model 4006 or ParaOrdnance P16limited all in .40 S&W. Have some unusual guns such as a 8 guage Davenport, a daisy VL rifle, a Mauser HSC with the Nazi symbol on the grip and a .45 cal 1911 from WW1. For invasion I have a Ruger Mini 14 in stainless and a tech 9 in stainless. Actually these were for when I went to the reef diving off the Florida coast. I do have a concealed weapon permit (who would have guessed)and I carry a Colt Mustang pocket lite limited in .380, I could not find anything smaller or lighter in that caliber back in 1987. I enjoy shooting and this state (Alabama)is shooter friendly. New Jersey was ridiculous. Back in the 70s to purchase a pistol you had to get a firearm permit which took months, then a special pistol permit which took additional months for each pistol. Only good for to and from the range in a locked box in the trunk, etc..
WARNING: TO carry a gun (deadly force) you must know the law. If you have a way out, you must take it, if he turns and runs, you must let him, your car (yes, even your Porsche) in theory is not worth a human life. Just don't want you to lose it to a law suit. Oh, yes, I enjoy black powder also with a TC hawken .50 in flintlock and a Ruger old army in stainless. I used to hunt with the flintlock in Pennsylvania and NJ. Also used a Marlin lever action in .35 REM for deer.
I enjoy life: Flying, diving, photography, motorcycles, radio control, shooting, and CARS!

George
83 911SC CAB/EURO
95 XJ6

This will be my first "controvesial" offering. I live in Australia (also a former colony), I was a copper for 8 years and was armed (38, 9mm). I don't mind saying that I was very glad to be armed during my working hours, and I have actually had to "shoot in anger",...never want to do it again.

I'm now a marine park ranger/fisheries inspector and am not armed any more. I still come across situations that I consider personally dangerous (boarding trawlers 20 miles to sea crewed with pissed and stoned ex-con crew) and sometimes think I'd like to have my 9mm. But when ever I turn on the TV and see the kind of mindless destruction a gun can cause, I thank Christ I live in a country that is trying to reduce the numbers of guns in society. There is no doubt that there are uses for firearms, but I can't fathom anyone wanting to live in a world where they are freely available to "anyone".

No, I'm not a tree hugger or free love moron, just someone who'd love to see the day when people can't pick up a firearm on the spur of the moment and do something they'll regret the rest of their and victim's life. Here in Australia we've had several "mass shootings", so I'm not trying to say that its better here than anywhere else.

I know the "people kill people" theory, and have read lots of expert opinions, I just thought whilst we were on the thread my opinion may be counted..... By the way, I still go to my local range and rent a 9mm a couple of times a month for fun with mates.

Cheers

I can clearly see that in the US the anti - gun notion is much different than, say, the UK. I have lived in the US too (I'm from the UK) and have had many discussins about it with people. Intrestingly, all my US friends are quite in favour of not having handguns around so reading this thread is interesting even more to experiance people who do shoot and have strong opinons on Firearms. I do like debate!
I wonder how the UK compares to the US in relation to Firearms incidents and/or death/injury statistics? In the UK the Police do not carry guns unless going to a Firearms related incident, or maybe Airport Security. I think we do have a lot of "gangster" related shootings - usually criminals shooting criminals, not that that is OK. It's so weird for me to even think of guns. I've seem one about twice close up, and on US Police. No one has ever pointed one at me or have I been involved in any incident involving one: and I've not lead a sheltered life! Guns are totally alien and I guess all of my UK friends would say that too. To think that in Noah's Neighbourhood every house is armed is scary. It would be fair to say that in my Neighbourhood no one will have a gun in their house, and yes, there's burglaries when people are out, I'm sure, but no one ever gets shot. A different world, I know, but which one is going in the right direction? - I'm not trying to say the UK is better, I mean that honestly, to try and have a non- violent world where if some kid in San Deiago feels picked on, lonely, inferior, he won't go and kill his classmates with a gun. He won't be able to get one and will just probably get depressed in his bedroom and get over it.

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'75 911S Targa
http://member.aol.com/asaffery/my911s.html

I agree with alot of what you are saying about when everyone has guns, the crime rate drops. But how do you explain Canada? We have no such problems and rifles (in northern ontario) are actually quite common.

To be honest, the way I see it is similar to how europeans see drinking. They have been around it their whole lives and its no big deal. In north america, every kid who turns 19 (21 in US) goes on a drinking binge to see 'what its like'. Humans! Psychology really intreagues me in these cases and we could go on forever...

Adam Roseneck

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1978 911SC 3.0
roseneck@cyberbeach.net

When I checked the board this morning, I wasn't at all surprised to see this thread having added so many posts overnight (I'm on European time), since it started yesterday, knowing how controversial guns are.
I lived in the US a couple of years ago, so don't write me off as another ignorant European - but in my opinion you are basically beyond where something could have been done about your gun problem - it is now out of everyone's hand. Wheter you like it or not..
Hearing about yet another school shooting yesterday doesn't even raise an eyebrow anymore... this will just keep on happening again and again - believe me!

I'm glad I live in a society where guns are illegal, and HARD TO GET, and where shootings are so rare they almost never happen. I HAVE plenty of gun experience, being a tank gunner in the army when I was younger, and the fact are - guns are used to kill people! http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/frown.gif

I get sooo tired when people use arguments that belong in the 18th or 19th century to justify their right to carry guns (I won't name names, since offending people won't get us anywhere)

No - I DON'T have a solution for your gun problem.
As I said - I think you are too far gone.
Because of lobbying organisations like NRA, politicians not having the guts to do what it took decades ago and a cowboy mentality still being present, you are today faced with a situation that could have been avoided.

Please keep the board clear of issues like this, and focus on our one common denominator - the P-cars! http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/tongue.gif

(I'm probably gonna be beaten up for this post - but it's my honest to God opinion. Reflect over the meaning of it, and you may agree to some extent..)