Grrrr: Plumber deceptive billing practice
 

My water heat stopped making hot water the other day and my sweetie called the people who installed it to come and check it out. They told her it was $35 for a visit.

The plumber comes out and replaces the thermocouple.

The bill was $35 for the visit and $195 for the thermocouple (an $11 part at the local hardware store) for a total of $230.

I don't have a problem with someone coming out on a Saturday and charging $230 for the visit. I just don't like them saying they charge $35 for a visit and then marking up a part price over 1000 % to cover the real cost of the visit.

In other words, it they said they charged $195 for the visit and $35 for the thermocouple I'd be all right with that.

Is this a commong practice with plumbers?

-Chris
P.S. I'm switching plumbers to a friend of mine.

Yes, it's common. Happened to me with RotoRooter years ago when my sink was clogged up beyond my abilities to repair it. The guy came out and said it was something like $50 for the visit. When he was all done, it was another $200 or so for the fix, which took about 15 min. and $3 worth of parts.

My current heater had a runoff drainage problem. I have a maint. contract with these guys, so I get a discount. $89 for the visit and they charged $100 for the fix, which I could have easily done myself once they had diagnosed the problem. It had really stumped me and even one of them. But the real smart other guy figured it out. Time before that the guy came out and charged me just for the visit and told me how to fix it myself for under $5, while he would have had to charge me over $100.

that happened to me a year or so ago, it was like $200 for a 99 cent part ( but I got a quote up front).
So is that what everyone means when they say P tax ??

How do you think they pay union wages? You can't pay your guys $60k a year+ with fair pricing.

Called a plumber on a Saturday for a main drain clog.
Person on the phone said it will be $150 to clear a standard clog.
Guy comes over 2 hours later to give an estimate. "OK, I'll need two guys (why I don't know) and they'll be here on Monday morning...it'll be $250". I reluctantly agree.
Monday morning they show and spend 15 minutes with the snake. They give me the bill and it's $650.00!

Sorry about charges, but now I appreciate all the plumbing crap I had to deal with.



here is something I read from Reader's Digest:

Attorney woke up at 10:00 p.m. with a leaky sink. He called a plumber. Plumber said he will come in the morning. Plumber showed up 2 hours late, fixed the problem in 30 minutes, and handed the customer a bill for $850.00.

Attorney: "What the F?ck!!! You were 2 hours late and you fixed problem in 30 minutes. And now you want $850.00? That is equal to $1,700.00 and hour...I am an attorney and I don't even make that much an hour!!!!

Plumber: "I know you don't. I used to be an attorney!" :)

When an attorney comes to my house on Saturday or Sunday and solves my problem, I might consider paying what I pay a plumber.

The next morning, the atty wakes up, goes to work, does a task in 30 minutes, bills the client 3 hours at $400 hours, and sends out an invoice for $1200.

When I get called out on a weekend my company charges $125 just to come to the door. I do commercial HVAC work only.That covers travel and diagnostic. I sometimes can travel 50 to 100 miles to a call. Labour is $125 per hour plus parts. We charge around $15 for a thermocouple. The above scenario with my company would have been around $200.

yeah but you'd have told them in advance,, the ******* him on the part is what Chris is objecting to.

Plumbers always say, "***** runs downhill"

It's a crappy job.

$200 to get plumbing repaired on a Sat? OMG!
You should discuss the bill with them, see how they react?

You guys crack me up. Hey, there is away to avoid most of what you are complaining about...whip out your little tool box and do it yourself!

Many if not most of the guys who log on to the various Pelican forums do a majority (or at least the minor stuff) of the work on their Porsches. And I didn't see anything listed that required a great deal of rocket-science-style expertise.

Maybe it's easier for me since my background was machine repair and maintenance in manufacturing plants but it's a tad humorous to read the whining in the posts here.

I agree, but my issue was diagnostic and it's not like I hang our on the plumbers' equivalent of Pelican Tech. Discussions. My issue had the boss on the phone totally stumped and one of his guys was stumped too. The second guy that looked at it figured it out though.

+1

It's a pipe. With water in it.

I just finished trying to get a plumber to honor his warranty ( leak after re-routing of existing under-slab piping up in the attic) and also replace the carpet padding his screw-up ruined. I ended up replacing the padding myself (for a cost of about $75) and put the carpet back down after it was dry, but his $230 carpet dryer blower is tucked away in my garage. A plumber should never try to rip you off after he forgot to take all his equipment with him. I'd be willing sell it back to him, or we could talk to the judge about it. Either way's OK with me.

Well Rick, what happened maybe is that the repair guys who actually often accomplish something learned a few of the tricks that lawyers, CPA's, financial advisors, etc etc have been doing for years...they told you how complex and difficult it was so that the bill was more palatable.

Heck, I would always do that when some jerk-off big wheel at a plant who didn't know ***** would insist that I give him a time/cost figure on a repair that my guys were going to do. I would triple everything. (it's called wiggle room) Make everything sound like it took a combination of genius and mechanical wizardary to get it done and then the bozo was happy as hell when it only took 1/2 as long at 1/2 the cost!:)

+2

No one ends up being a plumber because their gig as a brain surgeon didn't work out.

Sweating joints on cooper can be a bit of a black art, but you get the hang of it pretty quick. PVC and ABS plastic pipe? Well ya had tinker toys when you were a kid didn't ya?

A $20 book from Home Depot can work wonders.

I just plumbed in a sink in the laundry room I am building.

PEX tubing and pushlock connections are going to kill the plumbing industry. I did a new shower and a water softener no problemo.

There really is no need to sweat anything anymore.

Yeah, the old copper piping could be a little tricky and with the old steel and cast drain piping it's best to just rip it out and use the plastic stuff. It's so easy that most illegal immigrants can probably do it...well...actually they often do.:)

I had to call a plumber to take care of a running toilet in a rental property (I'm on the other side of the country). They show up (twice) and tell the tenant they'll have to order the part...a flush valve. This isn't a luxury home with one-off Italian toilets. Toilet is a basic Home Depot $99 special. ORDER the part?!? I called them and said don't bother. I can only imagine what the bill would have been after three trips to diagnose/fix a running WC.

My favorite plumbing story is the one about the doctor who called a plumber at 10 pm about a toilet. The plumber told the doc he would be out in the morning. The doc gets all huffy and says that's a crummy way to do business and how would you like it if I acted like that?

Plumber says...you know what doc you're right...I should act like you. So toss two aspirins in it and stop in my office tomorrow if it's not better!

I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic but if you are, imagine two scenarios:
(A) I told you I'd charge $35 to come look at your 911 motor. When I got there I charged you $195 for a fan belt.

(B) Now imagine that I said I'd charge $210 to come an look at your motor and then I charged you $20 for the fan belt.

A & B both come to the same total ($230) but wouldn't scenario "A" piss you off?

I don't have a problem paying someone $200 to come out on a Saturday with a fully equiped truck for 15 minutes work.

I do have a problem with someone charging me $195 for an $11 thermocouple....

Sorry if I'm a bit touchy about it still...

-Chris

Not sure if he was being "sarcastic" but let me be realistic. Not sure what you do for a living but I assume it's out in the real world. One would have to be incredibly naive (or something else to be unspoken here) to think that any business could send out a semi-professional repairman to your home for $35 bucks. So here are two thoughts:

First, surely you might expect that a number that low would have to be made up somewhere else in their business plan.

Second, before authorizing the work why did not "sweetie" or you get an estimate? That usually works really well when contracting out work.:)

I didn't make the call to the plumber and I'm not sure how one gets an estimate on "My gas hot water heater isn't working, how much is that to fix? Oh and BTW, how much do you charge for every part you might change in order to fix it?"

Afterwards she called another plumbing company to get a price for comparison purposes only to be told, "We don't quote prices over the phone."

Judging from other people's posts on this thread, apparently the plumbing profession has it's share of "Motor Meisters".

I've rebuilt my share of 911 motors and transmissions, fixed washing machines, roofed houses, rekeyed locks, etc. but excuse me if I don't know how to diagnose and fix a gas water heater and I don't know how much a thermocouple costs (until I looked it up on the internet).

-Chris

If you have "rebuilt...911 motors and transmissions" then a water heater is just about the most simple unit/appliance in your home next to your toaster!

Here is how you get an estimate: "Mr. Repairman, please do not do any major work until you give me the cost." It works nearly every time.:)

BTW, I've installed water heaters on my lunch break but it took me half a day to replace the damn Head Temperature Sensor on my 911!

So it is ok to lie to customers and provide false estimates? Sounds like a malfunctioning moral compass.

"OK Mr Plumber, just cool your heels while I go research on the internet for what a thermostat should cost. Only be a minute..." :D

I'm retro'ing a 3 unit apartment building in PEX. 1/3 the cost of copper and 2/3 the labor. The only problem was finding a supplier who would sell outside the "trade".

Home Depot or Lowes doesn't sell it ??

Yep, Home Depot and Lowes sell it. It really is awesome stuff and very easy to work with.

Hey Chris,
No I wasn't trying to be sarcastic; sorry; just a tongue in cheek expression that plumbers always use. I work with contractors everyday, you don't have to spell it out for me.
I agree with your point; the bill was probably correct for the work done, but the breakdown was fubar.

You continue to appear to be unable to process information and facts correctly. I'm going to try to locate the proper book that might heal your affliction...or would that actually be an "affection" for you?:)

What I was speaking of was at the "plant" where I might be assigned at that particular time. The "big wheel jerk-off" that I mentioned was a fellow member of the supervisory group and we were on the same team...and he was not a "customer." Go slow and it will come to you.

The only "malfunctioning...compass" is that one located between your ears.

No need to "research" anything. Just ask for an estimate on the total cost. You are making this waaaaaaaaaaaaay more complicated than it really needs to be.

Many years ago my AC failed on one of the hottest days of the year.

I called around and found an AC guy who was willing to come look at it that day, but he said a minimum of $60 just to show up. I said fine with me.

he checked it out and in 5 minutes said it was my main power relay. BTW I'm no electrician but I pretty much knew what that was after he told me.
he said he'd replace it for something like $250. I said no thanks, I'll give you the $60 for your time and you can go. I'll replace it myself. I figured it might only needed to have the contacts cleaned anyway after looking at it.

he said he's got one on his truck, he'll install it for $150. I said no thank you, I can probably buy one for less than $25. I'd bet he pays way less than that for one. prolly closer to $5 or $10.

he said he's do it for $100, I asked if that included the $60 show up charge. That ticked him off but he agreed. It took him 5 minutes to replace it but he still looked a bit angry which surprised me, seemed like we came to consensus plus he made closer to $90 instead of the $60 he was going to get. ;)

Do the specs require copper and if no why are you using it?

Again, this is exactly what I was trying to get across to Chris. Get an estimate and go from there. If you think it's too high, either do what you did or tell the guy thanks but no thanks.

It's too late when someone doesn't ask the right questions and then complains after the fact about the cost. If you had told him okay right after he first tossed you that $250 figure your final cost most likely would have been closer to $300. Unfortunately, that's the way it often works out.

The specs don't require copper, I'm replacing schedule M that was used (instead of K) when the place was built in the early 60's. Pinhole leaks were developing in one of the units and it's only a matter of time before they pop up elsewhere.

I'm using Pex for a few reasons. #1. $$$$ #2. Minimal disruption to the tenants and walls.

More info here, but you need to sign up to read the article (worth signing up. Great resource and magazine).
http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/how-to/articles/pex-pipe-is-copper-on-the-way-out.aspx?ac=ts&ra=fp

If I recall correctly the K is green stripe and M is red stripe and the K is a little thicker wall diameter. But both are basically drawn, hard tempered copper. I would sure use plastic if at all possible...less costly, easier to install, easier to repair...no brainer for me.

Good one Sammy!!! :cool:

You are correct, K is almost double the wall thickness and should have been used. The temps in the area get below freezing and the M started to fail. PEX has 10x the expansion of copper (great for cold areas) and has a burst failure on the tubing, not at the fitting, of 1000 psi. Normal house water pressure is 50-65 psi.