First off let me say that this thread was NOT started to bash JW's (despite what Trekkor decided to say in his PM to me). It was started to vent. Plain and simple. PPOT is a mostly anonymous forum where I feel like I (and others) can come to vent and get some feedback and sometimes encouragement. That's it.

I have no problem with the beliefs of JW's. If you want to believe that getting blood or eating pork or drinking or dancing will send you to hell then so be it, it's your belief. My frustration stems from the fact that JW's will accept full life support and yet refuse blood. It's a bit of an oxymoron. I will tell you from experience that close to 100% of the patients who spend a significant amount of time in the ICU come out anemic. Their bodies are sick and don't make red cells well, they are getting large amounts of IV fluids to support their blood pressure and organ functions and we are drawing blood often to monitor the intensive therapy they are getting. All this adds up to anemia. It seems a little odd to me to say "I want everything done, ventilator, dialysis, everything. I know all these things will lead to severe anemia...but you can't give me blood." The patient ends up going through a week or two of intensive care only to die from slowly progressive anemia. Why put him in the ICU in the first place then?

A good point.
I expect the vast majority would seek all other options first.


KT

Trekkor - your reply to my post was personal and accusatory. You broke the forum rules of civility you initially asked future posters on this thread to review before replying. I would call you a hypocrite in that regard, but hasty and thoughtless seems adequate.

As to your question of who I am. Well, I am someone who doesn't ask others to apologize for their opinions on a public forum. Conversely, I do not give apologies for my opinion on public forums.

So you may as well stop asking for expressions of contrition on my part.

My opinion still stands: a death of a baby or child because of a denial of medical care, including blood transfusions based on religion, is murder. Just as you believe, I presume, that abortion is murder.

Do you care to follow this up? If you were to discuss this issue rather than ask in a vitriolic manner for "apologies to society," you'd be a more convincing member of this thread.

Of course, that also is just my opinion.

Why? I already explained that to you.

Abortions are premeditated and ALWAYS end in death. People don't always die from refusing blood. In fact many medical procedures, including heart transplants, can be done bloodless.
Patients that are seeking medical care are there because they value and respect their life.

I thought your comparison was disgusting. Likely others do too.


KT

I have no view on someone who declines to receive blood for religious reasons - to each his own, I'd think.

However, if declining blood means that other medical treatment won't be successful, then I wonder if that other treatment should be given. Perhaps it depends on whether public or private money is involved.

I have just one more thing to say ,1st everyone take a deep deep breath..good,, On this forum we all are probly the most civil in the world, and thats good,, now my pt., I will say that most who jump in and say blood refusal is a bad thing have not educated themselfs at all, but just listened CNN . This is a knee jerk reaction , for the most part -like whats best- ford or Porsche....truly I beg you, if you find your self put off by some ones refusal..find out what they did not refuse, get your self informed ...Like said b4 if pumping blood into them as a last resort-would they live any way ? Most will say in this day and age it is not neccary at all.
There are so many alternitives to whole blood any more it scares me when I hear so called medical people say this is the only thing that will work..It shouts uninformed! , Red Cross dealer!, or lack of education!
As a side pt if your doctor and his asso. are pushing blood b4 a surgury I gaurntee they are in the stone age , uninformed, and ought to be tree surgens.
This is a OT forum,
so please no one loose their composier...we all need to vent..been there my self.
This has been M.O. broght to you by free language, thoughts, and bad spelling. LOL

where is tabs when you need him...

Yep, you got it right. he has a right to think and believe whatever he wants, just like the rest of us do.
For those who think you can tell him what he should and shouldn't do, you are messed up. You have no right to pass judgement on this man or condemn his beliefs.
Mine are different than his but that doesn't mean he should think like I do.

Abortion is a choice. Letting your child die because of religious beliefs is a choice. The actions and results are disgusting. Not the comparison.

Getting a blood transfusion. :D

I have been trying to avoid this thread, but decided to go ahead and jump in.

I am not a doctor. I have quite a few in the fam and always thought I would go down that route, but in the end went a different direction for VARIOUS reasons.

I also do not wish to offend any of the docs here on the board. I admire you for what you do and what you all endured to be able to do what you do. I also do not wish to offend others that might think differently than I am about to express... so I simply offer MY humble opinion, again my OPINION, about some of what has been said here on this thread. Mostly offered as more food for thought...

I completely support a person's right to choose what medical treatment they wish to choose for their circumstance. I also think parents should be able to choose freely for their children. The key in any of this is education. I do not mean education as in going to school. There are plenty of people out there that are intelligent enough to make informed medical decisions once given the information about various options. Doctors, although hopefully well trained, do not have the market cornered on intelligence. And there are plenty of options out there for lots of diseases and medical conditions, some of which may seem weird to some, but normal to others. Most docs I know hardly have the time to stay as well informed on new possibilities that might exist, or even old ones. It is just a matter of time required vs. time needed. It is all in perspective and what information a person has studied. There are plenty of great docs out there, but there are also plenty of bad ones as well. There are good and bad hospitals. There are also good and bad patients. Think about the ends we go through sometimes when it comes to work on our cars. Shouldn't we be that concerned with getting as much detailed info about medical treatment for various issues that might affect our health. How about we take care of our health to start with?

Finally, sometimes docs, nurses, hospitals, drug companies, patients make mistakes. There are a lot of people each year that die from medical treatment mistakes - SOME of those mistakes are malpractice, but I would say that most are simply mistakes. The bad part is even a simple mistake can kill someone, or do more harm that the disease or illness. The mistake made by patients is to blindly accept everything their doctor tells them as the end all. They need to be much more questioning. I find it very interesting that the AMA started a a widespread ad campaign last year talking about this and the need for patients to be more active in asking docs questions. Part of that is probably just a CYA move in my opinion, but there is still good advice in the message. I am starting to go on and on so I will stop. I could say much more, but most will probably be glad I am done!:rolleyes:;)

I agree with Nathan's Dad that perhaps if a patient refuses treatment that can be proven will defintely end their life (how to do this against one's faith though is a tricky issue), that patient might as well not be offered the other treatment, unless it is paid by private funds.

The faith/positive thought question is one that is very intriguing to me. I have seen some remarkable things in my circle. I have also seen/read/etc other intersting information about this. The placebo effect is very real. It begs the question of how much control our thoughts and faith do have on our well being. I think it has a LOT to do with it. In fact, not too long ago, there was a great documentary where they actually experimented with placebo surgery (knee surgery). I think it was half of the patients used in the study were only cut open, and then stitched up. It was very controlled, in that the docs and nurses pretended to do everyting they would have done as if actually operating. The results... more of the non-surgery patients had better recovery results. I think all would have to see it as an interesting result. I do not think the movie is readily available anymore (hmmmm:rolleyes:), but the study was performed in England I think...

I left out the part about drug companies and lawyers.:eek: Another time perhaps!;)

I sincerely hope that this is taken only as another opinion. It is my opinion, and so in the end, it really only matters to me, but I offer it again, as some more food for thought. I actually think this could be a great thread, but agree that we should keep things civil. It does not mean that we accept everyone's opinions without question, only that we respect them enough to alow them their own opinion, and afford them the ability to express it here among friends...

ShaneSmileWavy

Dear Mr. Rick:

I'am one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I would like to offer some help with your patient. Skilled physicians can help one who has lost blood and so has fewer red cells. Once volume is restored, doctors can administer oxygen at high concentration. This makes more of it available for the body and has often had remarkable results. British doctors used this with a woman who had lost so much blood that "her haemoglobin fell to 1.8 g/dlitre. She was successfully treated . . . [with] high inspired oxygen concentrations and transfusions of large volumes of gelatin solution [Haemaccel]." (Anaesthesia, January 1987) The report also says that others with acute blood loss have been successfully treated in hyperbaric oxygen chambers.

The heart-lung machine has been a great help in heart surgery on patients who do not want blood Physicians can also help their patients to form more red cells. How? By giving them iron-containing preparations (into muscles or veins), which can aid the body in making red cells three to four times faster than normal. Recently another help has become available. Your kidneys produce a hormone called erythropoietin (EPO), which stimulates bone marrow to form red cells. Now synthetic (recombinant) EPO is available. Doctors may give this to some anemic patients, thus helping them to form replacement red cells very quickly.

Even during surgery, skilled and conscientious surgeons and anesthesiologists can help by employing advanced blood-conservation methods. Meticulous operative technique, such as electrocautery to minimize bleeding, cannot be overstressed. Sometimes blood flowing into a wound can be aspirated, filtered, and directed back into circulation.

I could arrange to have a bloodless surgery team contact you quickly. Or, may contact our Medical professionals at our Hospital Information Services at 718-560-4300. Thank you for your medical integrity to this patient. Your seeking help on his/her behalf is commendable. Again, please let me know how we can be of further help.

Sincerely,
Freddie Hernandez

amen

Freddie, I appreciate your concern and offer to help, but nothing you stated hasn't already been done here. The surgery is already done, how "bloodless" it was I don't know, I wasn't the surgeon.

Interestingly you mention Epogen. The family in this case do not believe in Epogen use because Epogen contains albumin, a blood product. We have been using Aranesp instead which does not contain albumin. Curious that you would say Epo is ok, but this family says no.

Rick, Jehovah's Witnesses do favor erythropoietin (EPO). However, because Albumin does contain very minute blood fractions, some Jehovah's Witnesses refuse this alternative. It is a conscience matter. I am sure your patient and his family greatly appreciate all the medical staff efforts to provide him the best medical care without blood. Thank you Rick.

V8:

Did you know that the third most common cause of death in the US is physician error?

One can look that up on the intenet. Start with JAMA.

Bob, I have heard and read different stats from various source including AMA, but I was trying to not be too critical of docs. There are some really good ones and they defintely serve a purpose. But my opinion is that they are overused. People are too wimpy in my opinion and too quick to go for a POTENTIAL quick fix through drugs or surgery or both. Don't get me wrong, I strongly believe that you should see a physician when needed, and think most people know when it is probably truly needed... I myself fit into that category a couple of years ago when I nearly died from a freak gall stone and liver condition. My situation needed the attention of a very skilled professional taking me eventually to a highly focused liver specialist before it was finally over. I am fine now, and I really appreciate the skills of that man.

Then that same year, about 2 months into my recovery, my younger daughter, 10, sliced her right hand down to the bone all the way across her 4 fingers (she did this when she fell on an empty aquarium). Her injuries included nerve and tendons damage. But, lucky for us, the surgeon on call that night for this type of injury, just happened to be one of the best in the state anyway... That was a roungh one, but again, a time in which we truly appreciated the purpose for docs. So I am not anti-doc, just anti too much doc...

It is surprising to me though that on the ad campaign I mentioned earlier, the AMA subsidiary that sponsored the ad actually gave out that stat.

Oh, I agree that there are many fine and dedicated physicians out there. That being said, I have had the bad fortune to meet a few who were incompetent and were "protected" by the Medical Profession. "Personality conflict" is commonly used. Medical Boards "investigate" complaints, make a dismissal decree, stating that all info collected is confidential so there is no way to challenge the decision. That is a stacked deck if there ever was one, and reeks of "cronyism".

The system is broken and no one is in a hurry to fix it.